• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

How come no one complains about the old school remakes?

Maybe it's because there was no Internet, but I don't remember very much negativism toward the movies or TNG.

Oh, there was plenty of negativism toward TNG, particularly from the TOS cast. Most of them were skeptical or openly hostile to the idea, far more so than they were toward ST'09 (though maybe that's because at the time, they still saw it as viable that they could continue in their roles and saw the TNG cast as competition, whereas today they all -- aside from Shatner -- accept the fact that they won't be coming back).

If they had done a reboot instead of TNG back in the 80s, there probably would have been more of an uproar (and I don't think it would have gone over as well).

To a large extent, TNG was a reboot, at least initially. Roddenberry tried to keep it as far removed from TOS as possible, avoiding TOS aliens like Vulcans, Klingons, and Romulans, redefining the warp scale, etc. (And when TNG did use Klingons and Romulans, there were a lot of complaints about the show not following the versions from John M. Ford's and Diane Duane's novels.) Roddenberry even rewrote the Trek universe's history, introducing a "Post-Atomic Horror" in the mid-21st century that seemed to be meant to take the place of the 1990s Eugenics Wars/WWIII from TOS. In the years since, we've figured out how to reconcile those different versions of history by assuming that the WWIII mentioned in a couple of episodes was separate from the Eugenics Wars, but that requires ignoring Spock's explicit statement in "Space Seed" that the EW was "your last so-called World War." In TOS, WWIII was definitely meant to be in the 1990s, so at the time, the introduction of "the Post-Atomic Horror" of the 2070s in TNG was a major, major retcon (though a perfectly understandable one for a 1987 production).

It was revealed a few years ago by someone who knew Roddenberry at the time of TNG (I think it was Paula Block) that he once told her he considered much of TOS to be apocryphal as far as TNG was concerned. Just as he'd chosen to retcon the Klingons' appearance in TMP and pretend they'd looked like that all along, so there was a lot about the TOS universe that he wanted to change or ignore, things that he wasn't satisfied with because others had created them or because the budget and technology of the time had forced him to compromise the credibility he wanted. He intended a lot of TOS to be superseded by the new TNG canon he was creating.

However, in the years since, his successors have introduced more and more TOS elements into the 24th-century shows and come up with ways to reconcile the inconsistencies and merge the series into a more cohesive whole (even explaining the Klingon forehead issue). So today, we've forgotten how much of a reinterpretation TNG initially was.

It's what I've been saying -- time softens the sharp edges. We learn to get used to the incongruities, to rationalize the problems, and so they seem smaller to us with the passage of time than they were when they were new. Also, just looking at them from a distance makes them seem smaller and more smoothly blended into the larger whole. So we constantly end up imagining that the controversies of the past were not as intense or numerous or heated as the equivalent controversies that are going on today. And we come up with rationalizations to justify that perception. But the truth is, there's no real difference. There's nothing new under the sun, not where human behavior is concerned.
 
Maybe it's because there was no Internet, but I don't remember very much negativism toward the movies or TNG.

Oh, there was plenty of negativism toward TNG, particularly from the TOS cast. Most of them were skeptical or openly hostile to the idea, far more so than they were toward ST'09 (though maybe that's because at the time, they still saw it as viable that they could continue in their roles and saw the TNG cast as competition, whereas today they all -- aside from Shatner -- accept the fact that they won't be coming back).

QFT. I was 18 when TNG debuted, and I remember rabid Trekkies making the following complaints: it was a different crew; it was a different ship that *dared* bear the name Enterprise; no Vulcans on the bridge; a bald Captain; an Android :wtf:

I'm not talking just people in my area, because I had recently moved to California from Illinois. Rabid Trekkies would lampoon TNG at the conventions, in vile letters written to Sci-Fi magazines, etc. It wasn't until Season 3/4 when they finally accepted TNG and what it brought to the franchise.
 
And I remember people complaining about DS9 because there wasn't a ship. "Boldly going nowhere," etc.
 
Exactly. Hollywood has been in the remake business since Day One. Heck, Lon Chaney Sr. filmed THE UNHOLY THREE twice in the space of a few years, with pretty much the same cast. (Once as a silent, once as a talkie.) FRANKENSTEIN, DRACULA, THE MALTESE FALCON, BEN-HUR, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, THE WIZARD OF OZ, THE MARK OF ZORRO . . . plenty of classic films were "reboots" of one sort or another.

Nothing new or alarming here.
 
Do people even realize Scarface was a remake? i guess they are too lazy to do their research.
If you have to do research, why would you care? The outrage is about stuff people now, pretty much.

And actually I had my problems with the Cape Fear remake, though overall I liked it. I'd have difficulty imagining watching it not knowing it's a remake, or having not seen the original, though; it draws very heavily on its source material I think.
 
Last edited:
^ And you have the nod to the audience in the form of Robert Mitchum -the villain in the original - as a good guy, with Gregory Peck - the original hero - playing DeNiro's lawyer.
 
If they had done a reboot instead of TNG back in the 80s, there probably would have been more of an uproar (and I don't think it would have gone over as well).
To a large extent, TNG was a reboot, at least initially. Roddenberry tried to keep it as far removed from TOS as possible, avoiding TOS aliens like Vulcans, Klingons, and Romulans, redefining the warp scale, etc. (And when TNG did use Klingons and Romulans, there were a lot of complaints about the show not following the versions from John M. Ford's and Diane Duane's novels.) Roddenberry even rewrote the Trek universe's history, introducing a "Post-Atomic Horror" in the mid-21st century that seemed to be meant to take the place of the 1990s Eugenics Wars/WWIII from TOS. In the years since, we've figured out how to reconcile those different versions of history by assuming that the WWIII mentioned in a couple of episodes was separate from the Eugenics Wars, but that requires ignoring Spock's explicit statement in "Space Seed" that the EW was "your last so-called World War." In TOS, WWIII was definitely meant to be in the 1990s, so at the time, the introduction of "the Post-Atomic Horror" of the 2070s in TNG was a major, major retcon (though a perfectly understandable one for a 1987 production).

It was revealed a few years ago by someone who knew Roddenberry at the time of TNG (I think it was Paula Block) that he once told her he considered much of TOS to be apocryphal as far as TNG was concerned. Just as he'd chosen to retcon the Klingons' appearance in TMP and pretend they'd looked like that all along, so there was a lot about the TOS universe that he wanted to change or ignore, things that he wasn't satisfied with because others had created them or because the budget and technology of the time had forced him to compromise the credibility he wanted. He intended a lot of TOS to be superseded by the new TNG canon he was creating.

However, in the years since, his successors have introduced more and more TOS elements into the 24th-century shows and come up with ways to reconcile the inconsistencies and merge the series into a more cohesive whole (even explaining the Klingon forehead issue). So today, we've forgotten how much of a reinterpretation TNG initially was.
Well, you're probably right, so I'm not going to argue. I never experienced anything like that, though. All the Trekkies I knew were nearly as psyched as I was; we would eagerly await David Gerrold's updates in Starlog. Now that you mention it, though, I do remember reading one negative letter; a reader in Starlog complained about having an Android on the crew, because TOS proved that "Androids are evil." :rommie:

None of this stops nuTrek from sucking, though. ;)
 
Oh, please...let's not turn this into yet another topic about how/why yet another trek production sucks and how it should be 'fixed' I'm guilty of a comment or two, but come on...

As for remakes? First things first, because people look for something to bitch about. I've seen plenty of things get trashed for no ill reason what so ver, except to get trashed. People will bitch about sequels, reboots, remakes, re imaginings, whatever it is, people will bitch about it.

I'd say that mostly thought, it would depend on what the story is and when it was remade, not necessarily a 'old school' but more like, 'did the previous version come out fifty years ago, or five?' That, I think would make a big difference, when less then a decade passes before a remake comes out, there's issues. Also, I noticed that things like Wizard of Ox, Alice in Wonderland and A Christmas Carole can get less slack (but still can and do) for being remade (or retold, as someone once said), because it's the type of story, or kind of story, whatever, where that can happen and it's expected, or maybe netter termed, accepted. However, remakes of Halloween, or Friday the 13th, etc.. is seen by many (and perhaps true) as merely an attempt by others to get their name onto the franchise (no offense to anyone involved in those, I am sure in their own merit, they are good to), and not really tell a story that's been told before but in a new light.
 
You get the same thing in Star Trek fandom.
Star Trek has never been remade though. In the case of Trek XI, it occupies some nebulous territory between remake/reboot/sequel to the point where fans can't even decide if Spock Prime is the original Spock or not making it even trickier for fans to partake in reasoned discussion because even the most fundamental aspects of the movie can't be agreed.
Reboots are just remakes in disguise. ;)
 
Anyone ever notice that there is one genre that seems to get a very low (compared to others) number of "remakes"? Comedies.

My guess is that comedy needs the "freshness" in order to be funny. Who here would find a remake of "Blazing Saddles" funny? We've seen the jokes, just having someone else say the lines doesn't make it funny again the way new jokes do.
 
How can fans "not decide" whether it's the original Spock when the filmmakers have told us in no uncertain terms that it is? Also, I hate it when people use the word "fans" to mean "I," when they claim their personal opinions are universally shared. Given that ST'09 has the highest approval rating of any Trek movie on Rotten Tomatoes, IMDb, and Netflix, I think it's particularly disingenuous to claim that "fans" as a whole have problems accepting the film.

All these objections are just proving my point, and StarshipDefiant's point while we're at it. People are reflexively suspicious of the new and unfamiliar. It's a survival instinct, to be wary of something that hasn't yet proven benign. So when people look at a new version of something familiar, it's just animal instinct making them feel mistrustful or hostile toward it, and all the arguments they concoct about what's wrong with it are just attempts to rationalize that primal emotion. We like to imagine that everything we feel and do has a coherent, intelligent reason behind it, but as often as not, the reason is invented after the fact as we try to explain to ourselves and others why we reacted a certain way on instinct or impulse.

But by the same token, something familiar is less likely to raise an animal's hackles. If it's been around for a while and hasn't killed you, then you conclude it's safe and you don't react so negatively to it. You convince yourself it's not as bad, or you forget how strongly you objected to it going in. Hence, we react with kneejerk suspicion to something that's new, but then as we get use to having it around, we forget those feelings and tend to become more accepting. So we convince ourselves that whatever new thing has our attention is so much worse than similar things in the past, even if the intensity of our objections to those earlier things was just as great at the time.

But this too shall pass. Ten or fifteen years from now, the Trek purists are going to be screaming about the next new incarnation and waxing nostalgic about how much better and truer to Star Trek the Abrams films were.
 
I think it's particularly disingenuous to claim that "fans" as a whole have problems accepting the film.
I certainly never said that. One of the saddest things about the reboot is that so many Trek fans actually enjoyed that piece of unmitigated garbage; it's hard to believe that any of the same people who mocked NBC for calling Trek "too cerebral" found anything of merit in what was essentially a big-budget Asylum production.

People are reflexively suspicious of the new and unfamiliar. It's a survival instinct, to be wary of something that hasn't yet proven benign. So when people look at a new version of something familiar, it's just animal instinct making them feel mistrustful or hostile toward it, and all the arguments they concoct about what's wrong with it are just attempts to rationalize that primal emotion.
I have to disagree with this. If there's a reflex involved, it's more akin to loyalty. People wonder why the current audience can't watch something in black-and-white or accept old school special effects; they wonder why classic talent must be supplanted by the flavor of the week and they ask what's wrong with those old soundtracks. If they were to remake Casablanca just to be in color, filmed on location and to include a graphic shot of Major Strasser's head being blown off by Rick, I don't there would be any sense of "newness" to upset the caveman in us.

But this too shall pass. Ten or fifteen years from now, the Trek purists are going to be screaming about the next new incarnation and waxing nostalgic about how much better and truer to Star Trek the Abrams films were.
Now there's a thought to rival the Post-Atomic Horror. :rommie:
 
How can fans "not decide" whether it's the original Spock when the filmmakers have told us in no uncertain terms that it is? Also, I hate it when people use the word "fans" to mean "I," when they claim their personal opinions are universally shared. I think it's particularly disingenuous to claim that "fans" as a whole have problems accepting the film.
If 1 fan thinks that it's Spock and 1 fan doesn't, then that means that 'fans' are having problems : /

It's not like I'm going to draw up a definitive list of names detailing who thinks what.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top