How Canon is Endgame?
- Thread starter Lord Manitou
- Start date
Those of use with the secret of time travel have already seen it. People will be glad JJ cut down on the lens flare a bit this time, esp. in the new Engineering. 
I don't believe man has enough stuff to end the planet- more like end himself on the planet.
And 'Before and After' war reigns happily- I guess that's one for Kes. Why would their be war because of 'Before and Afters'?' Conundrums.
And 'Before and After' war reigns happily- I guess that's one for Kes. Why would their be war because of 'Before and Afters'?' Conundrums.
So does anyone here actually LIKE "Endgame?" Besides me, I mean?
I like parts of it. Honestly, I would like it a lot more if it didn't feel so rushed.
Joe Carey's wife must have been pissed.And then Endgame shows how if you're not a main character, you don't matter either:
WIFE: What do you mean Joe died last friggin week? He made it seven years only to get shot by an asshole with radiation poisoning?
Thank you all for such revealing responses, I read each of them with great interest.
I also think Endgame was a bit rushed especially at the ending. But I like it overall, and am pleased as punch some of you do as well.
I also think Endgame was a bit rushed especially at the ending. But I like it overall, and am pleased as punch some of you do as well.
I think the trouble with Endgame was the trouble with Voyager generally, the writers weren't fans of the show...apart from Jeri Taylor, but she was so hung up on how awesome Janeway is that it stretched belief so much...Mosaic has her proving there was life on Mars - as a teenager(!)
The writers just treated Voyager as another writing job, which is fine as far as that goes, but when you're dealing with something that has an established mythology, and a show that has such a singular premise, then you need to be able to connect with the show or it's not going to succeed...
Say what you like about Star Trek (09), the writers went back and watched all the episodes of TOS and read a lot of tie-in literature in order to understand the show...when Ricardo Montalban agreed to do TWOK, he watched and rewatched Space Seed in order to nail his performance...
Start off with Voyager from the start, what's the premise?
We've got a ship in the Delta Quadrant - presumably for the rest of their lives, travelling home. So they have no allies, no hope of refuelling, no possibility of recrewing and a crew that, frankly, won't survive the trip...they have no medical staff, 30+ enemy combatants on the ship and several key officers dead...
Now, unless the writers actually care about this premise at all, then what is the point?
We see god knows how many crew members killed over the course of the show - and no one cares...even Enterprise was better in this regard!
We see way more than 40 torpedoes fired (and I know, I know people are already lining up to say "well they could just build more" which is fine, except that when the writers say "we only have 40 torpedoes, with no way to replace them, then we expect that to be true) When the Torpedoes ran out, why not have Voyager salvage disruptor cannons from an enemy ship they've destroyed and graft them onto the hull? Or build their own?
About 20 shuttles are lost...right...
Right - here's what I would have done differently...at the beginning I'd have had 3 bits of paper, and stuck them up in the writers room:
1 which read: "Crew Compliment"
1 which read: "Torpedos Remaining"
1 which read: "Shuttles Remaining"
And every time someone died, or a torpedo was fired, or a shuttle was lost I would have crossed out the previous number and updated it...then the show could maintain consistency with itself! Want to add crew to the ship in your story? Fine, do that and update the number, want a throwaway line that "The handling on this shuttle hasn't been right since we rebuilt it" fine update the number, want to trade for torpedoes? Fine update the number, but just maintain consistency! It's not hard!
There's a power shortage, except for the holodecks which have an independent power supply which is incompatible with the other ship systems (which is like saying electricity generated by nuclear power is different than electricity generated by solar power - ie bullshit) but this only matters when the plot demands it...
If they wanted to do TNG-lite, then they should have just done TNG-lite...they had a whole new Quadrant to populate, so naturally in the first season we have holodeck stories, a Romulan, a Cardassian, Klingon stuff...
I like Voyager, really I do, but the premise wasn't executed right at all - look at the ship in Season 1 and compare it to the ship in Season 7, really what changed? They got an Astrometrics Lab...and that's it...forget that they can't change the studio model, change the sets! Show them damaged and patched, show the crew making the ship looking more homely - plants, artwork etc have the crew start to pair off and have children, have weddings, have funerals, have birthdays not just to service the plot, but to show that there is life on Voyager - Janeway says to Ransom in Equinox "we've been known to let our hair down from time to time" When?
The writers could have done so much with this series...but they were - with exceptions - too cowardly and TPTB were too stuck in TNG thinking to allow any creativity...
I think Endgame was the epitome of this -
TNG's last episode involved the future uniforms - so Voyager's must
TNG's last episode involved the Captain in multiple timelines - so Voyager's must
TNG's last episode involved the Klingons as enemies - so Voyager's must
TNG's last episode involved the Captain making a mistake and using time travel to correct it
TNG's last episode involved a romantic subplot which caused tension/drama
TNG's last episode was awesome...damn it
The writers just treated Voyager as another writing job, which is fine as far as that goes, but when you're dealing with something that has an established mythology, and a show that has such a singular premise, then you need to be able to connect with the show or it's not going to succeed...
Say what you like about Star Trek (09), the writers went back and watched all the episodes of TOS and read a lot of tie-in literature in order to understand the show...when Ricardo Montalban agreed to do TWOK, he watched and rewatched Space Seed in order to nail his performance...
Start off with Voyager from the start, what's the premise?
We've got a ship in the Delta Quadrant - presumably for the rest of their lives, travelling home. So they have no allies, no hope of refuelling, no possibility of recrewing and a crew that, frankly, won't survive the trip...they have no medical staff, 30+ enemy combatants on the ship and several key officers dead...
Now, unless the writers actually care about this premise at all, then what is the point?
We see god knows how many crew members killed over the course of the show - and no one cares...even Enterprise was better in this regard!
We see way more than 40 torpedoes fired (and I know, I know people are already lining up to say "well they could just build more" which is fine, except that when the writers say "we only have 40 torpedoes, with no way to replace them, then we expect that to be true) When the Torpedoes ran out, why not have Voyager salvage disruptor cannons from an enemy ship they've destroyed and graft them onto the hull? Or build their own?
About 20 shuttles are lost...right...
Right - here's what I would have done differently...at the beginning I'd have had 3 bits of paper, and stuck them up in the writers room:
1 which read: "Crew Compliment"
1 which read: "Torpedos Remaining"
1 which read: "Shuttles Remaining"
And every time someone died, or a torpedo was fired, or a shuttle was lost I would have crossed out the previous number and updated it...then the show could maintain consistency with itself! Want to add crew to the ship in your story? Fine, do that and update the number, want a throwaway line that "The handling on this shuttle hasn't been right since we rebuilt it" fine update the number, want to trade for torpedoes? Fine update the number, but just maintain consistency! It's not hard!
There's a power shortage, except for the holodecks which have an independent power supply which is incompatible with the other ship systems (which is like saying electricity generated by nuclear power is different than electricity generated by solar power - ie bullshit) but this only matters when the plot demands it...
If they wanted to do TNG-lite, then they should have just done TNG-lite...they had a whole new Quadrant to populate, so naturally in the first season we have holodeck stories, a Romulan, a Cardassian, Klingon stuff...
I like Voyager, really I do, but the premise wasn't executed right at all - look at the ship in Season 1 and compare it to the ship in Season 7, really what changed? They got an Astrometrics Lab...and that's it...forget that they can't change the studio model, change the sets! Show them damaged and patched, show the crew making the ship looking more homely - plants, artwork etc have the crew start to pair off and have children, have weddings, have funerals, have birthdays not just to service the plot, but to show that there is life on Voyager - Janeway says to Ransom in Equinox "we've been known to let our hair down from time to time" When?
The writers could have done so much with this series...but they were - with exceptions - too cowardly and TPTB were too stuck in TNG thinking to allow any creativity...
I think Endgame was the epitome of this -
TNG's last episode involved the future uniforms - so Voyager's must
TNG's last episode involved the Captain in multiple timelines - so Voyager's must
TNG's last episode involved the Klingons as enemies - so Voyager's must
TNG's last episode involved the Captain making a mistake and using time travel to correct it
TNG's last episode involved a romantic subplot which caused tension/drama
TNG's last episode was awesome...damn it
I'm predicting sometime around circa the year 4.5bn(by current calander) true the Earth would have been unihabitalbe long before then.
They really blew the Carey situation. They kinda forgot the character for a while, or the actor was unavailable. Then, when fans asked "Whatever happened to Carey?", they suggested in an altered timeline episode ("Before and After") that one Carey had died during a previous incident. Tragic, ironic. Fans wondered if he'd also died in the Prime timeline. When we saw the "Year of Hell" again, Kes's role was essentially played out by Seven of Nine, and so Carey's death in the Prime timeline wasn't a certainty.
Then, when they did the scene with Seven of Nine going back - disguised in a Starfleet uniform - to the day of Voyager's launch ("Relativity"), Carey is the only officer who encounters her. Very clever! ("Makes sense," the fans said. "Carey never lived to meet Seven when she joined the crew in the future, so it doesn't matter that Seven gets to chat with him.")
But then, someone decided that Carey Prime had always been alive ("Fury"). No big problem, and they liked the idea of bring back some old faces before the big finish - except that it diminishes the "Relativity" episode a bit. (Carey must have thought that Seven looked a bit familiar once her Borg pieces were removed and her hair grew back.) It was fun to see him back, but he was only back to have a shock death a few episodes later ("Friendship One"). And then that impact's diminished, too, because he dies just a few days/weeks before Seven does - and yet Admiral Janeway doesn't save him.
Similarly, the Seven/Chakotay pairing in "Endgame". A fascinating idea, but it needed to be seeded a few episodes earlier.
He planned an affair with her in his head.
He figured out how to nail her with out alerting the wife or the kids.
That's some strategic thought right there most men either can't be bothered with or can't handle.
Of course a friend was telling me about how she was propositioned by a married man recently "He said all the right things, he was so smooth, I was amazed to see how difficult it was to say "no" to him."
I replied "Well of course he could talk a good game, no one cheats just once."
Maybe Joe had a blur of stacked blonde affairs in his history and future, because remember, what hap;pens on Mars, stays on Mars.
And...
It was his job and his Oath to Starfleet to shut the fuck up and preserve the timeline.
He figured out how to nail her with out alerting the wife or the kids.
That's some strategic thought right there most men either can't be bothered with or can't handle.
Of course a friend was telling me about how she was propositioned by a married man recently "He said all the right things, he was so smooth, I was amazed to see how difficult it was to say "no" to him."
I replied "Well of course he could talk a good game, no one cheats just once."
Maybe Joe had a blur of stacked blonde affairs in his history and future, because remember, what hap;pens on Mars, stays on Mars.
And...
It was his job and his Oath to Starfleet to shut the fuck up and preserve the timeline.
Hehehehe. Well, it was Seven of Nine.
And, actually, in my job I do run into random people years after the first brief encounter. Sometimes they remember me, sometimes I remember them.
I disagree.
I think a show like "HEROES" is a show written by people that didn't care. nothing but nothing on the show made any sense. I think Voyager's writers cared very much because you can see the effort made in many eps.. I think it faltered due to it having too many cooks in the kitchen all wanting and expecting different things from the show. Braga wante the show this way, Berman wanted it that way, Paramount wanted it another way, then you had some of the actors asking for their own way, while the fans were asking/expecting something else. I think Voyager suffered because it tried to satisfy all of that and due it being overwhelming, it satisfied hardly anyone.
I think Voyager had allot of pressure on it to live up to the success of TNG. Another flaw the staff forgot was, lighting doesn't always strike twice. I think trying to live up to TNG is what killed the creativity. How do you improve upon a show that's already seen as perfection?
You might think that, but there aren't too many (any) high profile shows on TV being made by people who "don't care".
Now, I've only seen a few random eps so far, but it's been making sense to me.
It very quickly broke away from the premise that was supposed to make VOY so different to the other ST series. New types of lifeforms - and we got Kazon who looked rather like Klingons having a bad hair day. (It was a long time before we met Species 8472, and on the second meeting they were shapeshifting into humans.) It took over two years at maximum warp to leave behind Kazon space. A blended crew at odds with other. A main character slated to die of old age when the series ended; yes, how sensible to get this person training to be a nurse for a potential journey home of 70 years. No one starting new families, even though they might need new crew to get the ship home.
