Well I enjoyed Endgame and thought it was a fitting conclusion to the series and the Borg's overall story arc. I was suprised that some feel differently.
How Canon is Endgame?
- Thread starter Lord Manitou
- Start date
I read somewhere that the Ferengi were initially invented to be the main villains in TNG. After their first appearance in "The Last Outpost", everyone realized they weren't that scary, and they became a comedy race of aliens in Star Trek. You can almost guarantee that an episode with a Ferengi in it will be garner a few laughs.
Voyager did that to the Borg.
Voyager did that to the Borg.
The timeline monitoring of the future Starfleet only happens in this alternative timeline and its offspring! The real timeline is unaffected by it!
No, you're thinking of The Next Generation, when they had Beverlump single-handedly destroy a Borg ship. Nothing in Voyager comes close.
Voyager hardly made a mockery of the Borg.
Most of their encounters ended with the ship barely getting out of the situation intact, with damage, or received outside help of some kind.
Endgame as such presented us with means to return the Borg to their roots (or as they were when first introduced in TNG - no Queen).
I think Voyager did an ok job with the Borg (it wasn't any less 'convincing' than what TNG or Ds9 did to their opponents).
Endgame could mean that while the entire TW network was eliminated by Voyager along with Unimatrix 1 with the Queen, the Borg themselves probably 'live on' - though are damaged and will need time to recuperate - an albeit short amount of time, but could present SF with means of coming up with new ways of defending themselves, provided the writers don't mess up yet again and say something along the lines 'we've been sitting on our rear ends and underestimated the Borg AGAIN'.
Most of their encounters ended with the ship barely getting out of the situation intact, with damage, or received outside help of some kind.
Endgame as such presented us with means to return the Borg to their roots (or as they were when first introduced in TNG - no Queen).
I think Voyager did an ok job with the Borg (it wasn't any less 'convincing' than what TNG or Ds9 did to their opponents).
Endgame could mean that while the entire TW network was eliminated by Voyager along with Unimatrix 1 with the Queen, the Borg themselves probably 'live on' - though are damaged and will need time to recuperate - an albeit short amount of time, but could present SF with means of coming up with new ways of defending themselves, provided the writers don't mess up yet again and say something along the lines 'we've been sitting on our rear ends and underestimated the Borg AGAIN'.
The thing with Endgame is - while it is canon no doubt - that the Time Police we've seen throughout Voyager (and eventually Enterprise) would have repaired the timeline and punished Admiral Janeway for ass-raping the timeline just for her own good.
The novels - while uncanon - make Admiral Janeways actions even worse: because of her selfish, egoistical, stubborn behavior, billions of Federation citizens are killed by the Borg. A very high price to pay just to get one single ship back.
No, seriously, Admiral Janeway would have been stopped and the damage caused by her time travel would have been repaired, thus Endgame would have never happened and Voyager would have needed 23 years to get back to Earth.
The novels - while uncanon - make Admiral Janeways actions even worse: because of her selfish, egoistical, stubborn behavior, billions of Federation citizens are killed by the Borg. A very high price to pay just to get one single ship back.
No, seriously, Admiral Janeway would have been stopped and the damage caused by her time travel would have been repaired, thus Endgame would have never happened and Voyager would have needed 23 years to get back to Earth.
I doubt the Time Police would have reinstated THE BORG to prominence in the galaxy. I see them weighing the benefit of Janeway's chosen few, vs the benefit of a multitude of races/solar systems NEVER assimlated by the Queen and say... "what the hey, every cloud has its silver lining."
That's the point about a Time Police securing the timeline: it's not up to you to make that decision. Time travel is the ultimate form of playing God.
And who's to say they don't? Play God, that is.
When we first see the Time police, they are trying to destroy Voyager so Voyager won't destroy their century. But if what happens in the past is canon... then why go back and change it?
Voyager didn't ask to be thrown into the 20th century, it just happened and committing suicide to prevent from polluting the sacred Timeline would never have saved Braxton's future since they never even traveled to the 29th century in the first place. That was the Time police's error.
If what's past is canon, the Time Police should have left Voyager alone and let Starling fly to the 29th century and blow it to kingdom come all by himself.
As it was, the time police forced a confrontation with Voyager, forcing it into the past, which allowed one of THEIR time ships to be found/co-opted by Starling which lead Starling into into a confrontation with Voyager which ultimately SAVED the "Future" from a "Past" which NEVER should have threatened the "Future" in the first place if the Time police hadn't tried to play God!
JANEWAY: Time travel. Ever since my first day in the job as a Starfleet Captain I swore I'm never let myself get caught in one of these god-forsaken paradoxes. The future is the past, the past is the future. It all gives me a headache.
She doesn't like god forsaken paradoxes... but there's something else she likes even less.
Losing.
SAAVIK: Sir, may I ask you a question?
Admiral KIRK: What's on your mind, Lieutenant?
SAAVIK: The Kobayashi Maru, sir.
Admiral KIRK: Are you asking me if we are playing out that scenario now?
SAAVIK: On the test, sir, will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know.
McCOY: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario.
SAAVIK: How?
Admiral KIRK: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship.
SAAVIK: What?
DAVID: He cheated!
Admiral KIRK: I changed the conditions of the test. I got a commendation for original thinking. ...I don't like to lose.
SAAVIK: Then you never faced that situation, ...faced death.
Admiral KIRK: I don't believe in a no-win scenario. (into his communicator)...Kirk to Spock. It's two hours. Are you about ready?
SPOCK (on intercom): Right on schedule, Admiral. Just give us your coordinates and we'll beam you aboard.
Admiral KIRK: All right. (To Saavik) I don't like to lose.
And neither does Admiral Janeway.
When we first see the Time police, they are trying to destroy Voyager so Voyager won't destroy their century. But if what happens in the past is canon... then why go back and change it?
Voyager didn't ask to be thrown into the 20th century, it just happened and committing suicide to prevent from polluting the sacred Timeline would never have saved Braxton's future since they never even traveled to the 29th century in the first place. That was the Time police's error.
If what's past is canon, the Time Police should have left Voyager alone and let Starling fly to the 29th century and blow it to kingdom come all by himself.
As it was, the time police forced a confrontation with Voyager, forcing it into the past, which allowed one of THEIR time ships to be found/co-opted by Starling which lead Starling into into a confrontation with Voyager which ultimately SAVED the "Future" from a "Past" which NEVER should have threatened the "Future" in the first place if the Time police hadn't tried to play God!
JANEWAY: Time travel. Ever since my first day in the job as a Starfleet Captain I swore I'm never let myself get caught in one of these god-forsaken paradoxes. The future is the past, the past is the future. It all gives me a headache.
She doesn't like god forsaken paradoxes... but there's something else she likes even less.
Losing.
SAAVIK: Sir, may I ask you a question?
Admiral KIRK: What's on your mind, Lieutenant?
SAAVIK: The Kobayashi Maru, sir.
Admiral KIRK: Are you asking me if we are playing out that scenario now?
SAAVIK: On the test, sir, will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know.
McCOY: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario.
SAAVIK: How?
Admiral KIRK: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship.
SAAVIK: What?
DAVID: He cheated!
Admiral KIRK: I changed the conditions of the test. I got a commendation for original thinking. ...I don't like to lose.
SAAVIK: Then you never faced that situation, ...faced death.
Admiral KIRK: I don't believe in a no-win scenario. (into his communicator)...Kirk to Spock. It's two hours. Are you about ready?
SPOCK (on intercom): Right on schedule, Admiral. Just give us your coordinates and we'll beam you aboard.
Admiral KIRK: All right. (To Saavik) I don't like to lose.
And neither does Admiral Janeway.
Endshame
Endblame
Sendblame
Endlame!
Endpain
Endbane
Endcaned
End-dame
Endfame
Endblame
Sendblame
Endlame!
Endpain
Endbane
Endcaned
End-dame
Endfame
We agree that quantum realities and mirror universes exist and they are more probably a naturally occurring manifestation of space growing, and that time travel can happen two ways depending on the technology used, either that an alternate time line is created leaving a prime time line unraped by futurians making alterations...
So if the Temporal Prime Directive (which doesn't in the 24th century until Janeway rewrites Starfleets General Orders) isn't a blanket resolution for the mirror universe Prime Directive (It's like these *&^%$##@s don't know what the word "prime" means.) then Starfleet from one universe is not going to feel compelled to cross into alternate timelines/Mirror Universes to save the last vestiges of humanity from totally Borg universes even if they say "please" or to just dump omega bombs into totally Borg Galaxies half as a consideration of vengeance and half as a stopgap to make sure those buggers are knocked back to the nuclear age with chemical rockets and never figure out how to get out of their universe.
The Federation may not start a war of aggression with a foreign universe but by hell they will stop it.
So if the Temporal Prime Directive (which doesn't in the 24th century until Janeway rewrites Starfleets General Orders) isn't a blanket resolution for the mirror universe Prime Directive (It's like these *&^%$##@s don't know what the word "prime" means.) then Starfleet from one universe is not going to feel compelled to cross into alternate timelines/Mirror Universes to save the last vestiges of humanity from totally Borg universes even if they say "please" or to just dump omega bombs into totally Borg Galaxies half as a consideration of vengeance and half as a stopgap to make sure those buggers are knocked back to the nuclear age with chemical rockets and never figure out how to get out of their universe.
The Federation may not start a war of aggression with a foreign universe but by hell they will stop it.
I feel exactly the same way.
Guessing one moral to take away from all this, is that it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time.
Do you think Endgame takes place in 'our' timeline (the one we're in right now) or some other timeline?
The present in "Endgame" is the "Prime" Trek history. The Janeway that got home early is the one that gave Picard his orders in "Nemesis", and where Spock and Nero were sucked into a black hole a few years later when Romulus is destroyed.
It also wasn't helping things that they established that Starfleet did that stuff, but then didn't bother to do anything about Future Janeway's selfish nonsense. Hell, present day Starfleet should have been shitting it's pants to think that Janeway could be capable of pulling something like that in the future, just because she felt like it.
No, a more logical conclusion to Borg's "arcs" in Voyager would have been to follow up on either the conflict with Species 8472 they abandoned, or at the very least conclude the Unimatrix Zero stuff they started. Say what you will about Unimatrx Zero, it was pretty pathetic that they left a Borg revolution hanging there in season 7 without a finale.
Janeway Rulz:
In Voyager the writers take time-travel another step in technical viability. 'Time and Again' and 'Year of Hell' makes their eps. believable because, eventually, visible signs were present and Voyager jumps back to when it never happened.
The only ep. where a bladder is observed is in the ep(s) 'Endgame'. Obviously, the only difference with Voyager's space-time continuum in 'Endgame' is the distubance that developed off one side of the ship given by Adm. Janeway and the bladder. In previous years, the bladder was too weak but the prescence of the Borg Transwarp Conduit proved the bladder strong. Adm. Janeway was no longer immaginary.
"The Admiral succeeded Captain. The conduit shielding is de-stabilizing."
In Voyager the writers take time-travel another step in technical viability. 'Time and Again' and 'Year of Hell' makes their eps. believable because, eventually, visible signs were present and Voyager jumps back to when it never happened.
The only ep. where a bladder is observed is in the ep(s) 'Endgame'. Obviously, the only difference with Voyager's space-time continuum in 'Endgame' is the distubance that developed off one side of the ship given by Adm. Janeway and the bladder. In previous years, the bladder was too weak but the prescence of the Borg Transwarp Conduit proved the bladder strong. Adm. Janeway was no longer immaginary.
"The Admiral succeeded Captain. The conduit shielding is de-stabilizing."
Maybe 29th Century Starfleet was just so tired of cleaning up Janeway's messes that they decided that they were just better off letting Admiral Janeway succeed in bringing Voyager home early. The sooner they do that, the sooner she gets promoted and gets her ass out of the captain's chair.
Obvious answer: Braxton and the other time cops are from the post-"Endgame" future. If they undid it, they'd erase their own past.
I find all of Voyager to be of apocryphal canonicity at best, but that's just me.
I have a theory that after Endgame, Janeway ended up in the loony bin, that's why in 2379 she's "Vice-Admiral" Janeway (come on, from Captain to Vice Admiral? That would be going from Cadet to Capt...shut up JJ)
