How can these episodes (from TNG, DS9, and ENT) be canon any longer?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by The Rock, May 31, 2019.

  1. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Star Trek Discovery: The Enterprise War by John Jackson Miller, coming out next month. And, yes, the DISCO Enterprise is on the cover.
     
  2. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    It is canon as long as the studio (Viacom) wishes it, but it was a missed opportunity to make DISCO a prequel to the movie Star Trek so audiences didn't have to make comparisons to what was done a lot better in 1960's.
     
  3. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    And TOS sticks out like a sore compared to the rest of canon, though it gets a lot better through the movie era. In fact, IMO, scaling not withstanding, IMO the Discoprise/Eavesprise looks a lot more like a credible intermediate step between the NX-class and the Miranda and Excelsiors of the movie era than the original Jeffriesprise does, while still being a more faithful update than the Abramsprise/Churchprise.
     
  4. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

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    Miller is a great writer. He bowled a strike with Kenobi a few years ago. I was hoping Disney had their eye on it for script treatment but it seems like they've backed off one-offs for the time being.
     
  5. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There’s a small difference with those examples, though. None of them to my knowledge were trying to be in the same continuity as what came
    before it. The Nolan Batman films are not in continuity with the Burton films or the ‘60’s TV show. That Dracula film with Wynona Ryder is not in the same continuity as a Bela Lugosi film. That crappy Godzilla movie with Matthew Broderick is not in the same continuity as the original Japanese films. Et cetera, et cetera.

    But honestly, that’s all beside the point. To me, people are needlessly arguing over the canonicity of DSC when it’s unarguably canon. The real misunderstanding here is what CBS means when they use the buzzword ‘prime.’ It was meant as a term to differentiate it from the Kelvin universe films. That’s it.
     
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  6. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    Ok. It's Prime, canon and in continuity with ENT, TOS, and TMP forward.

    Glad to clear that up:beer:
     
  7. Abbey Halloween

    Abbey Halloween Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    Thank you, saved me from having to put a quarter in the jar!
     
  8. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Exactly. Despite certain youtube commentators attempts to convince viewers otherwise. That seem to work...
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It’s Prime if all ‘Prime’ means is that it’s not in the same continuity as the Kelvin films.

    It’s canon because it’s part of the body of work that is Star Trek as a whole.

    It’s in continuity with ENT (but then so are the Kelvin films), but not so much with TOS forward.
     
  10. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You guys...I swear sometimes.
     
  11. Abbey Halloween

    Abbey Halloween Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

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    I've come to see continuity between TOS and derivative products like the Kelvin films and Discovery as being a one-way street. The derivative products rely on maintaining continuity connections with the original to define what they are. Whereas it's possible to watch and enjoy TOS as its own thing without factoring in what spin-offs made decades after the fact by completely different hands have to say about its setting and characters.

    Jar Canon.jpg
    *CLINK, CLINK*
     
  12. Dry Bones 37

    Dry Bones 37 Admiral Admiral

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    Agree to disagree, which I'll bet you expected.
     
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  13. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, but in comic books, where Batman originated and has been steadily published since 1939, his continuity has been a steady evolution, with only a couple instances of reboots in an 80-year history. The same Batman who fought vampires and Monster Men in the 30s and 40s is the same Batman who dealt with Bat-Mite and went to outer space in the 50s and is the same Batman who went through the Carmine Infantino "New Look" and Adam West-style campiness in the 60s and is the same Batman who underwent a darker reinvention in the 70s in the stories of Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams and Steve Englehart/Marshall Rogers. It was all on a continuum, and you occasionally had references in the late 70s to stuff that happened decades before, like in 1977, when Englehart & Rogers brought Professor Hugo Strange back for the first time since December 1940's Detective Comics #46 or brought Deadshot back for the first time since 1950's Batman #59.

    So yes, it's more than possible to have multiple interpretations of a property within one continuity. It's easy. All you have to do is keep using or reinterpreting the bits you want to keep, and stop referring to the stuff you'd rather forget.

    And hell, Trek fans are doing that already, even if they don't realize it. When's the last time you saw Trek refer to "Spock's Brain," Star Trek V, "Masks," or "Threshold" within the show itself? You haven't. So even though those episodes/movies are still technically canonical, they are widely considered unsuccessful and best left forgotten. They haven't been officially thrown out of continuity, but they may as well have been.
     
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  14. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I actually included a reference to Englehart & Rogers' classic "Laughing Fish" story in my most recent BATMAN novel, which also picks up directly from the "Court of Owls" storyline of only a few years ago. To be honest, I half-expected somebody at DC to object to me referencing a Bronze Age story in a "modern" Batman book, but I didn't hear a peep. And not a single reviewer has objected either.

    It's possible to get too hung up on which stories are "canon" or whatever, regardless of whether you're talking Batman or Star Trek or Josie & the Pussycats. :)
     
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  15. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    Even if one is very much into the visual details, I’d argue there is no need to worry greatly about DSC’s artistic license. After all, who will try to slot a 442m Enterprise between the NX at 225m and the TMP version at 305m? It just wouldn’t work without “recasting” all the other ships to match, and we can be fairly sure that won’t happen at least. The redesign is likely to be remembered as U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 (Star Trek: Discovery). Use it for tie-in purposes, but otherwise it’s Jefferies and the original vision.
     
  16. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Benny who? ;)

    Well, it is supposed to be a more enlightened future...

    There's nothing to "excuse." The producers made a subjective aesthetic choice with their intellectual property, which they had every right to do, and anyone who doesn't like that can die mad about it.
     
  17. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    Who’s mad? I simply have a different point of view.
     
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  18. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

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    That's about the only way to handle continuity on a show that spans over five decades of filming with numerous time travel episodes. The timeline is basically spaghetti code at this point. We can embrace it and pick our own continuities. If its on screen, it's canon. That's about it. There are larger constructs within that, like MU, KU, Prime, etc, but those are not monolithic and have numerous changes within them as well. I don't have to get hung up about it to watch it. If anything, it makes it a little more interesting.


    Mignogna and others have done that, though I never heard of any of them being anything but supportive of the new shows as well. STC was a CBSAA affiliate website. I am not sure if it still is. .
     
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  19. Boris Skrbic

    Boris Skrbic Captain Captain

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    Fan films are illegal, and besides it’s nonsense to claim one must be able to perform a service in order to evaluate someone else’s. There is nothing technical about reimagining legacy elements to manage risk and ensure a minimum audience, rather than dismantle as much of the safety net as possible.
     
  20. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    They aren't. And for a long time, CBS had no issue with fans making them and even raising a little cash to cover costs. Then Axanar happened...