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How big was the Enterprise?

Admiral Jean-Luc Picard said:
Well, VOY's S5 episode "Extreme Risk" showed the design and construction of the Delta Flyer, and it was rebuilt at the start of S7 (lost in the S6 finale). This solves the riddle of Voyager's endless shuttles - they rebuild them when lost. Now, here's the real question. Presumably, Voyager has at least 2 of those small speedboat-looking shuttles, 2 of the boxy shuttles, the Delta Flyer, and Neelix's shuttle - the Baxial. Whenever we see the inside of the shuttlebay, it's always empty or just one shuttle. Where did they all go? :lol:
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Not to mention, the shuttlebay itself changed shape and layout inside several times throughout the show:lol:
 
What is not being taken into any meaningful account here is the reality that the documented intention was a certain size ship - a ship similar in size to a naval heavy cruiser and aircraft carrier. It was thus to be relatable in that way to a viewing population that was still exposed to a military draft and thus had a lot more familiarity with the reality of such things. The sets were built distorted to take into account lenses that would distort them further to allow small sets capable of being built on the alotted space to appear bigger. The multiple conundrum this creates becomes evident most clearly when you focus on the hangar deck. That model is built to accommodate a camera. It is filmed with distorting lenses. The intention is for it to look bigger than would fit in anything other than a deck the length of the entire secondary hull - “hold a fleet of jet liners”. There are multiple intentions going on at once- relatable to viewers with military experience, capable of being built, look huge. And then it all happens again with the shuttlecraft- the interior has to be big enough to stand in, but the exterior has to be small enough to transport to location shooting. And then THIS mishmash is put in THAT hangar deck.

Doug Drexler and Mike Okuda took me on a tour of the recreated filming sets and standing on the quite bizarre engineering deck, Doug explained the relationship between all the foreshortening and bigger/smaller/flatter elements we were seeing and the lenses that were used to shoot the set. It is simply impossible to take set blueprints as a guide for what was intended. But it is also impossible to take what was intended as indicative of what would fit because the exterior was being designed to a different set of presumed expectations.

Now, this does not set well with someone of a Treknological bent. We want it to MAKE SENSE. But the truth is, it DOES make sense, when understood as what it really was and not what we imagine it to be. For it to make sense as we imagine it to be, we need to use - no surprise - our imaginations. The guy building a 1/25 scale model of the ship interior on Youtube is a good example of just that. Fandom before the introduction of enslavement to canon is another. If the people telling the stories believe the size is crucial to your enjoyment of the production, they’ll tell you. Otherwise, they won’t and they’ll leave it to your imagination. They might produce a technical manual with the imprimatur of being an insider work, but then quickly disavow it as non-binding on future storytelling. So what is it? A clearer statement of current intentions - that might change.

The intention was 947 feet long. It was also a hangar big enough to hold a fleet of jet liners with a tiny 24 foot shuttle you could nevertheless stand up in and a bridge with the lift at the back on the outside but st 37° rotated on the inside. Jesus- the multiple windows are huge on the outside and yet the few times we see them on a set? Small. In other words, despite the sanctity of canon, the size is irrecoverable based on what is onscreen. To get a workable ship that you can walk around in with a measuring tape, you will have to break free and imagine.
 
aridas sofia said:
If the people telling the stories believe the size is crucial to your enjoyment of the production, they’ll tell you. Otherwise, they won’t, and they’ll leave it to your imagination. They might produce a technical manual with the imprimatur of being an insider work, but then quickly disavow it as non-binding on future storytelling. So, what is it? A clearer statement of current intentions - that might change.
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I assume you're alluding to TNG tech manual here, but I think this applies to TMOST as well, and even to FJ's tech manual, except in the latter case no new live-action star trek was suspected by FJ when he was producing his stuff.
 
@aridas sofia you just gave me all of the answers and none of them! :D

My own take is that I find value in a more constrained space knowing that even that has a hard time fitting in a 1000' ship. I would take the argument that making the SNW ship bigger just makes sense (it kinda does) if they didn't turn around and make the sets HUGE! (And gorgeous.) So it's a self defeating change.

aridas sofia said:
To get a workable ship that you can walk around in with a measuring tape, you will have to break free and imagine.
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THAT was the equation!
 
My thoughts when it comes to the numbers stated in tech manuals and printed in tiny details on a computer monitor are: does the number make sense based on what we can see with our eyes? If it doesn't make sense, then it is clearly wrong.
 
Tallguy said:
@aridas sofia you just gave me all of the answers and none of them! :D

My own take is that I find value in a more constrained space knowing that even that has a hard time fitting in a 1000' ship. I would take the argument that making the SNW ship bigger just makes sense (it kinda does) if they didn't turn around and make the sets HUGE! (And gorgeous.) So it's a self defeating change.


THAT was the equation!
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Look at the captain’s quarters on any US capital ship from WW2 and compare it to the set Jefferies designed for Kirk and you’ll see that even though Roddenberry was hell bent on that hangar bay appearing impossibly huge, he knew a ship’s captain had a damned small quarters.


Even an admiral’s quarters on a flagship were quite small-

www.alamy.com

Admiral's quarters on the USS New Jersey Iowa Class Battleship, Delaware River, New Jersey, United States Stock Photo - Alamy

Download this stock image: Admiral's quarters on the USS New Jersey Iowa Class Battleship, Delaware River, New Jersey, United States. - KTB3MM from Alamy's library of millions of high resolution stock photos, illustrations and vectors.
www.alamy.com www.alamy.com

I’m frankly disappointed in the decisions made since TNG that decided double the crew needed something like eight times the space, instead of using futuristic technology to make submarine-narrow corridors look however big they want them to look. There’s a helluva lot of wasted space on even the TOS ship, so the desire to make it bigger always leaves me a bit amused.
 
Regarding quarters, check out the Captain's Cabin on Battleship New Jersey. So roomy and has at least two entryways kinda like the TOS quarters...

e8d9JA8.png


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blssdwlf said:
Regarding quarters, check out the Captain's Cabin on Battleship New Jersey. So roomy and has at least two entryways kinda like the TOS quarters...

e8d9JA8.png


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I visited the USS New Jersey when I was in Philadelphia back in 2008. The Captain's quarters were indeed rather spacious and well appointed. One of the sailors told me they frequently entertained celebrity visitors who stayed in the Captain's Quarters, including Ann-Margret.
 
HotRod said:
I visited the USS New Jersey when I was in Philadelphia back in 2008. The Captain's quarters were indeed rather spacious and well appointed. One of the sailors told me they frequently entertained celebrity visitors who stayed in the Captain's Quarters, including Ann-Margret.
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You guys will have to enlighten me as I haven’t been aboard USS New Jersey. If those are the captain’s quarters, and what I linked to is an admiral’s quarters (presumably for when the ship was used as his flagship) are they different views of one space? From different points in time? Is one the captain’s in port cabin and the other his at sea cabin? Because one certainly seems quite small and the other the opposite, and they are both identified as being on the same ship.

 
aridas sofia said:
If those are the captain’s quarters, and what I linked to is an admiral’s quarters (presumably for when the ship was used as his flagship) are they different views of one space? From different points in time? Is one the captain’s in port cabin and the other his at sea cabin?
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Not sure. It's been more than a few years since I visited the ship. I did find a video that gives a pretty good look at the Captain's Quarters at the 3:15 mark.
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As you can see, they are rather large and accommodating.
 
HotRod said:
Not sure. It's been more than a few years since I visited the ship. I did find a video that gives a pretty good look at the Captain's Quarters at the 3:15 mark.
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As you can see, they are rather large and accommodating.
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Okay the tour guide explains it. What you posted is the in port cabin and what I posted is the at sea cabin. That’s what I thought. When I started deck plans of the TOS ship based on my cross section, I did something similar. I had a redress of Pike’s cabin in the B/C deck (across from a command information center), be Kirk’s “at sea” cabin, and the one we usually saw be his “in port” cabin, though I imagined they weren’t used in quite that way.
 
The in-port captain's cabin was more than just his personal quarters though. It was his boardroom for meeting department heads, the dining room for official dinners and hosting, his office and at least on the ship I served the longest on, the place where he held his Captain's Masts. Such functions required a decor that said 'formal and official' and was upscale enough to impress.
The XO's cabin wasn't nearly as large or nice.

As for the sea cabin, in the 80s during the Cold War, the only time I ever heard that our captain used it was during our transits through the Strait of Malacca, one of the busiest waterways in the world*. It was otherwise used by the officer in charge of the watch section on duty as a sort of watch office.

But the Cold War meant a lot of peacetime cruising....


*(We had a detail called Sea and Anchor that we manned when entering and exiting ports which ostentatiously put the most experienced sailors on watch. Usually lasting about two hours, through the Strait of Malacca, that detail could last 18 hours or more.)
 
Of the four Iowa-class battleships, New Jersey was specifically constructed to serve as a flagship; with enlarged officers quarters for an Admiral and his staff.
The same goes for the Portland-class cruiser Indianapolis. It also had enlarged quarters for an Admiral and staff. Which is why Raymond Spruance flew his flag from it during the Pacific war.
A few of the Essex-class carriers also had larger quarters and better communication facilities built into them so they could serve as flagship in Task Groups.​
 
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aridas sofia said:
You guys will have to enlighten me as I haven’t been aboard USS New Jersey. If those are the captain’s quarters, and what I linked to is an admiral’s quarters (presumably for when the ship was used as his flagship) are they different views of one space? From different points in time? Is one the captain’s in port cabin and the other his at sea cabin? Because one certainly seems quite small and the other the opposite, and they are both identified as being on the same ship.

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In the beginning of the video the curator shows the CIC which replaced the original admiral's spaces from WW2 and that the admiral's spaces were deleted at some point as the navy did not want the ship to be an "admiral's yacht". At the 12:22 mark the curator shows the admiral's quarters and spaces that were added in the late 80s near the captain's quarters. You will recognize the admiral's bed from your photo reference.
 
And on the other end of the spectrum is the enlisted berthing on New Jersey (and the example shown here definitely has a Cerritos feel to it.)
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Not all ships are so haphazard in their berthing compartment designs, We had large dedicated spaces that had very little pass-through traffic and most of that was vertical because of some aux engineering spaces that were below the berthing.
1IIRC, the glass-enclosed bulletin boards in berthing contained the bunk assignments—needed for the distribution of your clean laundry—and, at least for E-division, you needed division approval to change bunks, with deference given to E-6s first, followed by E-5s, etc on down the line. So, for me at least, it was less free-for-all than the host suggests.
Otherwise we had similar three-tier bunks—though all three had coffin-lockers, not just the bottom two like in the video.
 
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