How about a respectful religious vs non-religious discussion?

[Pingfah]

In the fear-based group in which I was raised atheists were all apparently having regular meetings, gathering together in smoke filled rooms in some back alleys plotting...something... in between orgies and killing Christians.

If that were what Atheist meetings were like, I might reconsider my stance on joining a group. Except for the killing Christians bit. The rest sounds like a laugh though. I hope there'll be plenty of booze too, can't plot evil without a good single malt.

 

[Bluewhale]

I have my own issues with Hitchens and Dawkins, to the point where while I can admire some of their work, I do not approve of their methods, nor their misogyny (which is another story). The only time I become frustrated with any sort of religiosity is when it's being used to either curtail my rights and the rights of others, or is being used to prevent genuine help from reaching those in desperate need. As a humanist, I cannot allow for such things. Otherwise, the religious, non-religious, and so on, can have discussions and while they will most assuredly disagree on any number of points, there's always the opportunity for civility and understanding.

I'm happy to read anyone's point of view in a forum. The place for it is a forum like this one as I've been invited in by the title and enter freely to read all points of view as this is the place for doing just that.

It seems to me that Atheism has become just another religion, or anti religion if one prefers. Some have become more fanatical than the mainstream religions.

I don't appreciate religious people disturbing my peace at home. Or anywhere for that matter. There is a time and place for discussion for everyone.

Apart from the door knockers, I have never felt such an invasion of my peace as I do by non-believers who seem to have become zealots for the cause. Some NB fanatics bring up religion in social settings; weddings, graduations, funerals etc.

The reality is no matter what anyone else writes/ says/signs it's most unlikely that anyone will change the mind of another when it comes to politics or religion. So, believer or not - please save it for healthy debate in dedicated forums or church or seances, and respect others in social settings who do not want to hear either side engage in rabbiting on, usually in voices that increase in volume as the refuting goes on.

Peace be with you.

 

[Amaris]

I'm happy to read anyone's point of view in a forum. The place for it is a forum like this one as I've been invited in by the title and enter freely to read all points of view as this is the place for doing just that.

It seems to me that Atheism has become just another religion, or anti religion if one prefers. Some have become more fanatical than the mainstream religions.

I don't appreciate religious people disturbing my peace at home. Or anywhere for that matter. There is a time and place for discussion for everyone.

Apart from the door knockers, I have never felt such an invasion of my peace as I do by non-believers who seem to have become zealots for the cause. Some NB fanatics bring up religion in social settings; weddings, graduations, funerals etc.

I prefer to take people as individuals. Granted, sometimes a generality can make a quick and accurate point, but it's often far too easy to blanket everyone with that generality instead of listening to what they have to say. When it comes to atheists or anti-theists, some of them may be upset and bring it up because it is so often brought up in their lives without their having any peace from it.

How often does an atheist hear from family members "I'm praying for you," or "you're going to burn in hell if you don't believe," or my favorite "it's just a phase." As an atheist, I can tell you that there are often times I feel like I am on the receiving end of judgment by the country at large, and I haven't done anything to merit that scrutiny. The vast, vast majority of people who live in the U.S. are religious, most of them Christian. It's not so easy to find a place to rest from the constant onslaught of religions sentiments, and religious imagery that some demand be placed everywhere, including on our money. I can understand that frustration.

The reality is no matter what anyone else writes/ says/signs it's most unlikely that anyone will change the mind of another when it comes to politics or religion. So, believer or not - please save it for healthy debate in dedicated forums or church or seances, and respect others in social settings who do not want to hear either side engage in rabbiting on, usually in voices that increase in volume as the refuting goes on.

I was once a fundamentalist Christian minister. I was deeply conservative, dedicated and devoted to my God, and with my whole heart I served Him, loved Him, and I loved His Son who died for all of us and covered us in His saving blood, washing us white as snow, that we would one day meet the Master of the House who created us. I no longer believe that, but I also do not criticize those who do, unless they wish to force me out of the country, silence my voice when I go to vote, reject my right to representation in our government, or deny me a job or housing.

Over many years, my perspectives on many things have changed. Many things, and a lot of it happened here on this message board. I would be glad to discuss that with you any time.

Peace be with you.

And with you, also.

 

[Bluewhale]

Agreed. Personally I have never felt any sort of negative feeling towards me because I don't believe in anything. But then, it rarely comes up, because I don't feel the need to announce my lack of beliefs, or identify myself by that, because it means nothing to me.

Unfortunately many atheists aren't like you and their conversation monotonously turn to the same old comments about their non-beliefs.

 

[Bluewhale]

I prefer to take people as individuals. Granted, sometimes a generality can make a quick and accurate point, but it's often far too easy to blanket everyone with that generality instead of listening to what they have to say. When it comes to atheists or anti-theists, some of them may be upset and bring it up because it is so often brought up in their lives without their having any peace from it.

How often does an atheist hear from family members "I'm praying for you," or "you're going to burn in hell if you don't believe," or my favorite "it's just a phase." As an atheist, I can tell you that there are often times I feel like I am on the receiving end of judgment by the country at large, and I haven't done anything to merit that scrutiny. The vast, vast majority of people who live in the U.S. are religious, most of them Christian. It's not so easy to find a place to rest from the constant onslaught of religions sentiments, and religious imagery that some demand be placed everywhere, including on our money. I can understand that frustration.



I was once a fundamentalist Christian minister. I was deeply conservative, dedicated and devoted to my God, and with my whole heart I served Him, loved Him, and I loved His Son who died for all of us and covered us in His saving blood, washing us white as snow, that we would one day meet the Master of the House who created us. I no longer believe that, but I also do not criticize those who do, unless they wish to force me out of the country, silence my voice when I go to vote, reject my right to representation in our government, or deny me a job or housing.

Over many years, my perspectives on many things have changed. Many things, and a lot of it happened here on this message board. I would be glad to discuss that with you any time.



And with you, also.

Coloratura, I'm really in awe of what you must have gone through. I would like to discuss it further. I'm pleased to hear that discussion boards have helped you. My reply was really to the zealots who do come to the forefront rather more than many, believers or not. I do think this forum is the place for such discussions... Then along comes someone like you who has no interest in converting others to your point of view rather leaving me wanting to hear more of your journey.

 

[Amaris]

Coloratura, I'm really in awe of what you must have gone through. I would like to discuss it further. I'm pleased to hear that discussion boards have helped you. My reply was really to the zealots who do come to the forefront rather more than many; believers or not. I do think this forum is the place for such discussions... Then along comes someone like you that has no interest in converting others to your point of view rather leaving me wanting to hear more of your journey.

Thank you, and yeah, any time you feel like discussing it.

 

[Set Harth]

In the fear-based group in which I was raised atheists were all apparently having regular meetings, gathering together in smoke filled rooms in some back alleys plotting...something... in between orgies and killing Christians.

Dammit, why am I always out of the loop on these things?

 

[stardream]

I was once a fundamentalist as was Coloratura. Believed all the things she listed above but when I became an adult I left and didn't go to church for quite a while...became an agnostic. About 13 years ago for reasons I will not go into here I became a Catholic and as Coloratura will tell you that as far as most (not all) fundamentalists are concerned I might as well have become an atheist. Some of them believe I'm on my way to hell as well. I endure anti-Catholic rhetoric because some of it is justified. I mean, after all, Jesus picked Judas.

Because of my experience being outside of the faith for those years I understand where atheists are coming from and am able to dialogue with them and yes, sympathize with them. I don't believe they are out to get me, some of them have an agenda but I don't believe in driving opposing views underground and I hope they would grant me the same courtesy. If they don't, that's life.

I have not experienced any problem in the Star Trek community, probably because evolution and science are not forbidden subjects for Catholics to study. We've come a long way since Galileo. I do hold to certain values and standards for myself but I don't believe in forcing my values on someone who does not share them. It's been tried before in various forms by various groups and it's never worked.

 

[{ Emilia }]

As far as "atheists having an agenda" I think it's mostly the wish to diminish the influence religious people (and sometimes organized religion) are trying to have on other people's lives.

That is definitely where a lot of anti-clericalism in Italy is coming from and if I lived in America I would be even more worried about it.

 

[Doom Shepherd]

I have enough of my own silly beliefs*, I do not desire to share any of yours, especially by force of law. If this is an agenda, then I have one.

I have found, over time, that there is a thing I would call an "evangelical atheist." I don't like those guys, either. A chunk of them are just "I am evah so edgy" trolls out to upset whoever they can, and the rest are the smuggest kind of schmucks you can come across.

I generally only talk about my belief system if someone else directly questions me, or brings it up as a negative. I'm not one of those jerkass nonbelievers who feels he has to make a big deal out of it when the religious people in the family say a simple grace before a meal they prepared - Hey, I'm getting free food, here. OTOH, if one of them starts going on about how evolution/science is a lie and/or the space program is worthless... well, have you ever seen a howitzer fire at a cow at point-blank range? Me neither, but I imagine it's something like that.



*For instance, the more I know about how my local sports teams are faring, the worse they do. I had no idea the Penguins made it to the Stanley Cup.

 

[Amaris]

I was once a fundamentalist as was Coloratura. Believed all the things she listed above but when I became an adult I left and didn't go to church for quite a while...became an agnostic. About 13 years ago for reasons I will not go into here I became a Catholic and as Coloratura will tell you that as far as most (not all) fundamentalists are concerned I might as well have become an atheist. Some of them believe I'm on my way to hell as well. I endure anti-Catholic rhetoric because some of it is justified. I mean, after all, Jesus picked Judas.

Because of my experience being outside of the faith for those years I understand where atheists are coming from and am able to dialogue with them and yes, sympathize with them. I don't believe they are out to get me, some of them have an agenda but I don't believe in driving opposing views underground and I hope they would grant me the same courtesy. If they don't, that's life.

I have not experienced any problem in the Star Trek community, probably because evolution and science are not forbidden subjects for Catholics to study. We've come a long way since Galileo. I do hold to certain values and standards for myself but I don't believe in forcing my values on someone who does not share them. It's been tried before in various forms by various groups and it's never worked.

Well, if we were neighbors, this is one atheist who would gladly let you borrow a cup of sugar*.



*It's actually Splenda. <evil cackle>

 

[Jedi_Master]

Well, if we were neighbors, this is one atheist who would gladly let you borrow a cup of sugar*.



*It's actually Splenda. <evil cackle>

Well, Satan uses Sweet N Low™ so there is hope for you yet.

 

[stardream]

Well, if we were neighbors, this is one atheist who would gladly let you borrow a cup of sugar*.



*It's actually Splenda. <evil cackle>

That's ok. I'm diabetic. Strictly a stevia person.

 

[Amaris]

Well, Satan uses Sweet N Low™ so there is hope for you yet.

I'm pretty sure Sweet N Low is Satan's jock itch powder.

That's ok. I'm diabetic. Strictly a stevia person.

Me too! Well, I don't use stevia so much, because it's a bit too sweet for me. Splenda is sugarish without being overly sweet. This means, of course, that you would definitely get to try my apple walnut muffins if you lived next door. They're very low sugar, and low carb.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Recently, I have seen several "natural" products that proudly announce they are sweetened with "evaporated cane syrup."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As far as "atheists having an agenda" I think it's mostly the wish to diminish the influence religious people (and sometimes organized religion) are trying to have on other people's lives.

That is definitely where a lot of anti-clericalism in Italy is coming from and if I lived in America I would be even more worried about it.

Absolutely.

In the US, Christians operate from the position of privilege of having always been in the overwhelming majority. Many, and I daresay most, Christians believe it is their duty to spread their religion, these people generally have no idea what a secular society looks like, they don't believe it could be a good thing that they should support and strive for, and they really don't have a clue what the First Amendment says (by which I mean, they have no respect for it, even if they do understand it). Hence, they mistakenly equate the observation of atheists' rights with anti-Christianity, and they treat atheists as second-class citizens, in innumerable ways.

 

[stardream]

I'm pretty sure Sweet N Low is Satan's jock itch powder.


Me too! Well, I don't use stevia so much, because it's a bit too sweet for me. Splenda is sugarish without being overly sweet. This means, of course, that you would definitely get to try my apple walnut muffins if you lived next door. They're very low sugar, and low carb.

I'm all about the low carb.

 

[Amaris]

Recently, I have seen several "natural" products that proudly announce they are sweetened with "evaporated cane syrup."

People don't seem to realize that cane syrup is still sugar. For some reason, they've got it into their heads that sugar is a healthier alternative to HFCS and artificial sweeteners. It's like they didn't realize diabetes existed before the advent of man made sweeteners.

I'm all about the low carb.

Yep!

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

My favorite is when someone tried to promote Stevia to me as an alternative to sugar and earnestly told me "it is made from a plant!"

 

[Amaris]

My favorite is when someone tried to promote Stevia to me as an alternative to sugar and earnestly told me "it is made from a plant!"

Did they, uh, not know where sugar comes from?