His hero is Ahab. Kirk would be the big white Dick.
HEY! I just realized! If Khan was from India...
- Thread starter Chrisisall
- Start date
His hero is Ahab. Kirk would be the big white Dick.
Thanks.^
Good rationalization on the cabal of geneticists and the naming.
So, does anyone else more or less visualize Gattaca as portraying the situation in America during the beginning phases of the Eugenics War, or is it just me?
Eugene = Khan?
It's not just you.So, does anyone else more or less visualize Gattaca as portraying the situation in America during the beginning phases of the Eugenics War, or is it just me?
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
It's not just you.So, does anyone else more or less visualize Gattaca as portraying the situation in America during the beginning phases of the Eugenics War, or is it just me?
No, it is just you two.
Gattaca was about a peaceful, consensual choice by society to have humans be better by way of genetic engineering; the Eugenics Wars and the Augments that caused it were the result of the secret cabal not being able to modify said Augments as well as the Valids were made in Gattaca. The Augments wanted to take over the world because they thought that they were superior to ordinary humans (Kludges, or 'In-Valids'); the Valids did not want to do so, all they want is to be productive, ordinary members of society, albeit ones with perfect selves. An Eugenics War in the Gattaca universe would be catastrophic and stupid, since it would be mostly a nuclear one quite quickly, and with nobody being the winner. What is unfortunate is that normal humans have been displaced and made to do
menial tasks, but that is far from their being slaves to augmented humans as in Star Trek.
Last edited:
The problems with the "secret cabal" approach to the Eugenics era are manifold.
Genetic manipulation of human beings would be an expensive and intense program. In the First World at least, it would almost definitely be carried out by corporations with a profit motive, meaning a public program open to any who can afford it.
Further, Augments aren't really that special in small numbers. Trek's shown in Space Seed, TWOK, and the Augment arc that they make pretty good terrorists. But not irresistable conquerors.
So they have three times my strength? Lots of people have three times my strength, they're called body-builders, but bullets stop them more or less identically. Twice my intelligence? Yeah, plenty of people like that--the law students who have a higher class ranking than I do.
They will "rule the world" in their small ways, as attorneys, judges and elected officials. But they won't resort to violence, because they don't have to. So why should an Augment resort to violence when their skills would permit them, like the Valids, to reach positions of great prestige and authority lawfully and without risking their physical safety?
Beyond that, any secret Augment program, any few thousand genetically engineered ubermenschen, are a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of millions of humans of nearly equal talents produced through the usual and less expensive means of making people. Several thousand superhumans of Augment capability would be a curiosity, at best a pilot program. They would not, however, be a cabal capable of ruling anybody, especially not through intimidation and force.
Khan may have believed that his 70 could rule a planet, but only through the firepower of the Enterprise, built through the collective efforts of Invalids, with science created by Invalids. He was also delusional, and was insane not to realize that Starfleet would hunt him down like a mad dog even if he had succeeded in killing Kirk and his crew.
Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense that the Augments existed openly, and in large numbers. Tens if not hundreds of millions.
It also appears distressingly plausible that the threatened normals pursued them to extinction through a global pogrom. Who knows--they wrote the history, maybe the humans started the war.
Another alternative explanation as to the disappearance of an Augment subculture is regular interbreeding, of course, but neither theory is actually exclusive of the other.
Genetic manipulation of human beings would be an expensive and intense program. In the First World at least, it would almost definitely be carried out by corporations with a profit motive, meaning a public program open to any who can afford it.
Further, Augments aren't really that special in small numbers. Trek's shown in Space Seed, TWOK, and the Augment arc that they make pretty good terrorists. But not irresistable conquerors.
So they have three times my strength? Lots of people have three times my strength, they're called body-builders, but bullets stop them more or less identically. Twice my intelligence? Yeah, plenty of people like that--the law students who have a higher class ranking than I do.
They will "rule the world" in their small ways, as attorneys, judges and elected officials. But they won't resort to violence, because they don't have to. So why should an Augment resort to violence when their skills would permit them, like the Valids, to reach positions of great prestige and authority lawfully and without risking their physical safety?Beyond that, any secret Augment program, any few thousand genetically engineered ubermenschen, are a drop in the bucket compared to the hundreds of millions of humans of nearly equal talents produced through the usual and less expensive means of making people. Several thousand superhumans of Augment capability would be a curiosity, at best a pilot program. They would not, however, be a cabal capable of ruling anybody, especially not through intimidation and force.
Khan may have believed that his 70 could rule a planet, but only through the firepower of the Enterprise, built through the collective efforts of Invalids, with science created by Invalids. He was also delusional, and was insane not to realize that Starfleet would hunt him down like a mad dog even if he had succeeded in killing Kirk and his crew.
Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense that the Augments existed openly, and in large numbers. Tens if not hundreds of millions.
It also appears distressingly plausible that the threatened normals pursued them to extinction through a global pogrom. Who knows--they wrote the history, maybe the humans started the war.
Another alternative explanation as to the disappearance of an Augment subculture is regular interbreeding, of course, but neither theory is actually exclusive of the other.
Thanks.^
Good rationalization on the cabal of geneticists and the naming.
So, does anyone else more or less visualize Gattaca as portraying the situation in America during the beginning phases of the Eugenics War, or is it just me?
Eugene = Khan?
Actually, I'd kind of agree with that as well.
The idea of a covert war doesn't support Spock's statements in Space Seed. However, what is said in Space Seed doesn't actually contradict Future's End. There was talk about Eurasian empires and fighting in Africa, but nothing about the United States. It's possible the western world was left mostly untouched and, perhaps, after the supermen almost destroyed each other, the surviving western world went in and destroyed the Augments, killing them all and restoring old governments (sort of Congress of Vienna style).
Then why did his skin colour change between Space Seed & WOK? Simple lack of sun exposure would not account for it, eh?
Well, some north Indians can be very light skinned, so it may be the case that being out of the sunlight, made his complexion seem almost white.
Not all Sikhs wear a beard - some are 'late adopters', i.e. have not been baptised as a Sikh, but follow the religion to some extent. Plenty of Sikhs here in the UK do not sport one.
Also 'Sikh' has become a semi-ethnic term like 'Jew' - so Khan may have simply been called Sikh, because his parents were - he may not have any interest in the Sikh religion himself.
Khan is a common last name amongst South Asian Muslims, but not common amongst Muslims outside the Indian subcontinent.
The origin of the name, lies with the Mongols - the Mongols themselves, who were pagan, and later Buddhist, never conquered India.
But one of the Mongol sucessor-states in Central Asia, which had adopted Islam, and which featured a largely Turkic/Persian culture, speaking the Chagtai language, invaded India and formed the Mughal Empire - Mughal being a Persianised term for Mongol.
Unlike other Central Asian invaders who plundered India (which was the richest area of the planet in ancient times), the Mughals stayed, and formed an Indo-Islamic Empire, combining Persian, Turkic and Mongol influences with Indian culture - the name Khan became popular with South Asian Muslims.
However, since Khan Noonien Singh uses Khan as a first name, rather than surname, I think it is probably intended to evoke the original meaning of Khan - i.e. a title, like 'ruler'.
If they do decided to bring Khan back, which I am not convinced would be a good idea (because the new crew needs its own adventure, with no homages or links to the old timeline, if the new setting is to ever gain depth), then my vote would go to Naveen Andrews from Lost.
What's wrong with "augments"?
I'll grant that one's YMMV on whether the Enterprise arc was worthwile. I think it was okay, Arik Soong was a great character, and the torture scene with the guy from Office Space was probably Enterprise's one really great scene, but the story was undermined at nearly every turn by his children being far too stupid to have been properly genetically engineered.
I'll grant that one's YMMV on whether the Enterprise arc was worthwile. I think it was okay, Arik Soong was a great character, and the torture scene with the guy from Office Space was probably Enterprise's one really great scene, but the story was undermined at nearly every turn by his children being far too stupid to have been properly genetically engineered.
You could, but it would be a bit superfluous to the discussion.
