True enough. He may become more interesting by the end.
HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams
- Thread starter Ensign_Redshirt
- Start date
I agree. I'm surprised by people who seem to be unaware of moral relativism. However, I suppose that it might be a product of a strict religious upbringing, which tends to encourage a morally absolutist world view.
I've mentioned that several times in the thread; there was no rape scene. The only thing we saw was him dragging her into the barn after the horrible mess that happened at the ranch. His bemused "you really don't remember me, do you?" even suggested that he had no intention of hurting her, though I can easily see how people might have read that the opposite way.
The function of William's character (If he isn't MiB) seems to me to be to give the audience an example of the kind of revelation Ford thinks people should have in the park. And it's become pretty clear that William and Dolores are following Ford's new storyline, I'm starting to wonder if they aren't slightly in the future.
It's very suspicious to me that we haven't seen proof Elsie is dead yet. It seems like we have already passed many opportunities to dramatically reveal her death. Not showing us dramatically makes the most sense if something else is going on, like Ford sent Bernard to kill Elsie then Arnold intervened, planting a false memory of murdering Elsie for Ford to try to erase. Seems like a strong pitch to recruit a brilliant coder: "Hey, Ford just tried to murder you and he controls everything in the park. I've gone undetected here for years. Might be in your best interest to be my friend, eh?"
If MiB didn't rape Dolores in that scene, then it was intentionally edited to lead people to that conclusion, which would be cheesy, so I'm rooting for the writers to be better than that. It would fit MiB's character whether or not he's William. Like he murdered Maeve and her daughter to see how he felt, maybe he would rape somebody he was emotionally attached to to see how he felt.
It also makes more sense with the 'You are the most real when you bring out strong emotions' theme if he raped her. It wouldn't make sense for that encounter to spur Dolores' memory if it wasn't just as traumatic as Maeve's memory.
It's very suspicious to me that we haven't seen proof Elsie is dead yet. It seems like we have already passed many opportunities to dramatically reveal her death. Not showing us dramatically makes the most sense if something else is going on, like Ford sent Bernard to kill Elsie then Arnold intervened, planting a false memory of murdering Elsie for Ford to try to erase. Seems like a strong pitch to recruit a brilliant coder: "Hey, Ford just tried to murder you and he controls everything in the park. I've gone undetected here for years. Might be in your best interest to be my friend, eh?"
If MiB didn't rape Dolores in that scene, then it was intentionally edited to lead people to that conclusion, which would be cheesy, so I'm rooting for the writers to be better than that. It would fit MiB's character whether or not he's William. Like he murdered Maeve and her daughter to see how he felt, maybe he would rape somebody he was emotionally attached to to see how he felt.
It also makes more sense with the 'You are the most real when you bring out strong emotions' theme if he raped her. It wouldn't make sense for that encounter to spur Dolores' memory if it wasn't just as traumatic as Maeve's memory.
?????
No, it really hasn't. The only thing even remotely suggested is that they're partaking in whatever it is Ford is unearthing as part of his new storyline, which apparently includes an original test site for the hosts and where Dolores "lost her shit" during what I assume was her beta test.
Sorry. I read through the thread pretty quickly, so I must must have missed that part. I only watched the first 8 episodes in the last couple days, so I haven't been following the thread in real time (which is kind of funny given the theories here).
saw episode 9
The revelation about Arnold went as I expected. I knew he was not going to be some unfamiliar face. The speculation earlier in this thread that Bernard was replica of Arnold and those early scenes between Dolores and Bernard were actually Dolores and Arnold felt right to me so I was not surprised by what happened here. But Dolores killed Arnold? presumably ordered by Ford.
And when Dolores was expecting William and MiB showed up instead. interesting!!!
So MiB is a board member. No wonder he was getting VIP treatment
I thought for a brief moment that Dolores killed Logan, but no such luck
And when Dolores was expecting William and MiB showed up instead. interesting!!!
So MiB is a board member. No wonder he was getting VIP treatment
I thought for a brief moment that Dolores killed Logan, but no such luck
Individuals involved with the series have gone on record - unprompted - to say that not every theory fans have come up with is accurate, meaning that something has to be wrong, and since the "Bernard is a Host" and "Bernard is/was Arnold" theories have been confirmed, that leaves the "William = The Man in Black" theory as the only thing left that CAN be wrong, making it highly likely that it IS wrong, especially given the way Doloroes' final scenes in the episode played out.
Strange that Bernard never told Ford about Maeve . . . unless the latter already knows.
Does this means that you're still hoping that Maeve is the villain? Why not Dolores?
Does this means that you're still hoping that Maeve is the villain? Why not Dolores?
Serious question: Why are you so invested in it being wrong, especially when all of the actual evidence (as opposed to the producers and other behind-the-scenes types with a vested interest in maintaining secrecy) says otherwise?
This episode only confirms things even more. The really old picture Dolores' father found? That was the one of William's fiance that Logan tucked into his jacket while tormenting him. The Man-in-Black saying the first time he looked inside a host, he saw they were robotic? We saw that scene last night. Dolores' clothes flashing between her dress and pants suit, coupled with her freaking out in the previous episode about not being able to tell her memories from reality? Blatantly obvious evidence that she's jumping back and forth between now and 30 years ago. Her calling out William's name as the Man-in-Black steps into the church? Yeah, total coincidence, that...
And that's just from that episode. Nevermind all the evidence from just about every other episode, too.
At this point, one has to either be intentionally lying to themselves or flat-out oblivious in order to not see what the show is telling us.
It just seems that way to me. Maeve is the one manipulating everyone around her, partnering with the most notorious villain in the park, murdering her creators, reprogramming herself and others on a whim, referring to the real world as Hell, and so on and so forth. As opposed to Dolores who is awakening "naturally" (or at least as Arnold likely intended), out seeking to understand who and what she is, and constantly showing an innate sense of morality and/or regret in nearly everything she does.
In fact, her only negatives are memories of killing herself and of possibly killing Arnold, but we have no idea what the context of those memories are right now. For all we know, Arnold asked her to kill him in order to give the hosts the "god" they need, which is central to the whole "bicameral mind" theory they mentioned early on in the series. And then the grief of doing so could have caused her to break down and end up commiting suicide (which seems to be a default action when breaking down, as evidenced with the woodsman looking for Orion).
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I think it needs to be pointed out, yet again, when certain things happened with regards to Dolores, Arnold, and the "incident" that we learned about in The Original:
- Arnold died - at Dolores' hands - 34 years prior to the present-day, which is before the park was opened
- The "incident" was the result of Arnold's bicameral mind programming causing the first-generation Hosts to go haywire, and occurred 4 years after Arnold's death
- When Dolores saw Angela and other first-generation Hosts dancing and whatnot in the streets of Escalante, she was seeing things that happened more than 34 years ago, meaning that the park wasn't open yet and Arnold was still alive
The only thing this episode really did with regards to Dolores was to clarify that we're seeing her flash in and out of memories and confirmed that we're consequently seeing multiple time frames within the same storyline sequence.
When she goes back up into the church in Escalante, she's in the present, but can't tell memories from reality... hence why she says "William" when the MiB shows up.
It's not confirmation of the "William = The Man in Black" theory, it's a confirmation of the "multiple periods of time" theory, which does turn out to have been separate from the "William = MiB" thing.
- Arnold died - at Dolores' hands - 34 years prior to the present-day, which is before the park was opened
- The "incident" was the result of Arnold's bicameral mind programming causing the first-generation Hosts to go haywire, and occurred 4 years after Arnold's death
- When Dolores saw Angela and other first-generation Hosts dancing and whatnot in the streets of Escalante, she was seeing things that happened more than 34 years ago, meaning that the park wasn't open yet and Arnold was still alive
The only thing this episode really did with regards to Dolores was to clarify that we're seeing her flash in and out of memories and confirmed that we're consequently seeing multiple time frames within the same storyline sequence.
When she goes back up into the church in Escalante, she's in the present, but can't tell memories from reality... hence why she says "William" when the MiB shows up.
It's not confirmation of the "William = The Man in Black" theory, it's a confirmation of the "multiple periods of time" theory, which does turn out to have been separate from the "William = MiB" thing.
Tell yourself what you need to tell yourself, man. The only person you're fooling is, well, yourself.
The show has all but blatantly told us these things now. The only "evidence" to the contrary is the nonsense you keep pulling out of your tuchus.
The show has all but blatantly told us these things now. The only "evidence" to the contrary is the nonsense you keep pulling out of your tuchus.
I'm still holding onto hope that Elsie is alive. Perhaps it's a fool's hope, but I'm still holding onto it. Robert never actually said Bernard killed her, just that "they had to make difficult choices."
The main thing that has been holding me back was Dolores being attacked by the Man in Black in the barn and then apparently rushing into William and Logan's camp directly after that moment. However, this episode made it clear (or perhaps clearer to me) that the only times we saw "present" Dolores is her wandering through the park and flashing back to her experiences with William. I bet all of Dolores scenes will make more sense upon watching the season again.
Edited to add:
Vox's Todd VanDerWerff has an interesting theory on the multiple timelines theory that not only covers Dolores and William, but also Teddy and Wyatt:
Yeah, these things finally did it for me, particularly the photograph and the mechanical internal parts. I still don't like it but it does make more sense, especially in light of Bernard being a copy of Arnold (hence the conversations we saw were actually with Arnold).
The main thing that has been holding me back was Dolores being attacked by the Man in Black in the barn and then apparently rushing into William and Logan's camp directly after that moment. However, this episode made it clear (or perhaps clearer to me) that the only times we saw "present" Dolores is her wandering through the park and flashing back to her experiences with William. I bet all of Dolores scenes will make more sense upon watching the season again.
Edited to add:
Vox's Todd VanDerWerff has an interesting theory on the multiple timelines theory that not only covers Dolores and William, but also Teddy and Wyatt:
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That would be relevant if the theories that have come true were the only fan theories. There have been MANY theories thrown out there, the ones that have been widely guessed and come true have gained prominence because as the show has gone on most people (present company excluded) have seen that the evidence is mounting in favour of that.
And Jon Snow is still not coming back, because the producers said so. Also, Khan is not in Star Trek into Darkness according to JJ Abrams. Plus, the third Star Wars film is definitely going to be named Blue Harvest, because why else would they make all those signs and cast and crew clothing if it was going to be called something else?
I wondered if they would do that. Certainly makes sense considering it feels like there's still a lot of ground to cover in order to prevent there being any major hanging threads remaining by the season's end.
