HBO's "Westworld", starring Anthony Hopkins/produced by J.J. Abrams
- Thread starter Ensign_Redshirt
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Whoa. Maeve got the power. I wonder if it will be enough to save her, though, against all the resources of Westworld and Ford. And I still find the idea that she could survive in the outside world dubious at best.
I wasn't sure if that was Elsie being killed in that quick flashback, but I figured it had to be her. I'm still very suspicious that we haven't seen a body, though, and that she is now "on leave."
And let's call them "Time Bunnies." It's amazing that such a great show can inspire such trivial arguments.
I wasn't sure if that was Elsie being killed in that quick flashback, but I figured it had to be her. I'm still very suspicious that we haven't seen a body, though, and that she is now "on leave."
And let's call them "Time Bunnies." It's amazing that such a great show can inspire such trivial arguments.
Nice episode. Not as good as the previous one but a good one.
I liked the way Maeve rolled her eyes when the new Clementine did her routine. Maybe I have imagined it but I liked it.
I have also almost missed the part about Elsie. I liked her, just as Theresa and it's sad that she might be dead. Ford's "of course not" was funny though. So at first I thought it was just someone.
I still hope the MIB is Logan, not William. I don't like the way the MIB treated her.
I liked the way Maeve rolled her eyes when the new Clementine did her routine. Maybe I have imagined it but I liked it.
I have also almost missed the part about Elsie. I liked her, just as Theresa and it's sad that she might be dead. Ford's "of course not" was funny though. So at first I thought it was just someone.
I still hope the MIB is Logan, not William. I don't like the way the MIB treated her.
I'm in the same boat completely. I hope it's true, but I have a bad feeling it's not despite Bernard's reaction to the memory (he didn't freak out like he did with Theresa, though that could be because of whatever Ford did to him to calm him down at the beginning of the conversation).
I did notice that they explained the brunt of the "flashback" timeline, though. Namely that hosts' memories aren't like ours but are pretty much perfect. The last time we saw Dolores before she started showing up with William, she was having a mental breakdown and flashes to other points in her memories. And now, she seems to be wandering around the park relieving those past memories as she slowly awakens naturally, as opposed to Maeve being artificially sped through the process.
And again, I really do think they're setting it up for Maeve to be the real villain and Dolores to be the heroine.
I'm also curious if that's Dolores we see during the intro scenes with the half-melted face on horseback. We haven't seen a character like that, but she seems to be rather prominent in the intro. Sure, it's probably completely unrelated and just something cool the guys who created the intro decided to make, but it still piques my curiosity.
"Not much of a rind on you."
You're right, she's not, but the woman Teddy and the Man in Black encounters is Angela, the woman who greeted William. She also appears in Dolores' memory of the old village.
I am struck after rewatching, at the profound alienation of humanity depicted by this show. Consider what we know about the world in which this takes place. All disease has been defeated; Ford ruminates that perhaps death is next to fall, and then humanity will be without purpose. He and Arnold created AI androids to "tell their little stories" but could not sustain the place financially, which does not seem a stretch given that the hosts seem to outnumber guests at least 10 to 1 inside the park. So Delos comes in, and has no interest in guests and their fantasies, but, I suspect, is entirely interested in AI that can allow people to upload their consciousness for the sake of immortality. Charlotte has certainly implied that the place still does not turn a profit and is only sustained by Delos for the IP, which includes the DNA of all guests, according to the guest agreement.
I am finding it harder to engage with the show because rather than seeing deepening relationships, what little bit of human warmth we have seen so far is unraveling. Bernard's dead son is a lie, as is Maeve's dead daughter. MiB has a life outside, a family, from which he has been so alienated that his wife killed herself, which makes me judge her pathetic since she never confronted or left him. Pain is all that makes you real. William is also pathetic and wants Dolores to free his geeky soul while she simply doesn't want to go mad. Charlotte and Lee are despicable people. Ford is a terrifying megalomaniac with a god complex. Felix and Sylvester are pathetic half-people, who seem, a la Brave New World, to have "been sorted in the embryo" for grunt work due to lack of intelligence. Elsie and Theresa, the only human beings with even a spark of true feeling, are both dead (yes, Elsie is dead - the shot before you see Bernard as the one attacking her is off her feet off the floor), destroyed by the only other person who seemed to have any real humanity.
While I can appreciate the puzzle box aspect of a tale (though this one is poorly executed since there are numerous instances of narrative delay that results in senseless actions by characters), and the meta commentary on story (which is undercut by the fact that the story they are using to comment on story is not particularly engaging), what exactly are we supposed to care about in this story? Whether William is the MiB? Since neither of them has a compelling human story, I can't make myself care if they are each other or not. Whether we are watching multiple points in Dolores' story? So what if we are? How does that make the story good? Will Ford be brought down by Hale/Delos - both are horrific options so how can I root for either? I was caring about Maeve there for a minute, but this episode's delaying took the steam out of her narrative.
I really wanted to like this show. I think they have much intriguing material to work with. But I fear they got caught up in their own cleverness and forgot to tell a good tale.
I welcome other viewpoints, but it seems the fandom is thoroughly engaged in puzzle solving, but I think for me there is such a thing as too much mystery if it is not grounded in solid character building and story telling. What do you think?
I am finding it harder to engage with the show because rather than seeing deepening relationships, what little bit of human warmth we have seen so far is unraveling. Bernard's dead son is a lie, as is Maeve's dead daughter. MiB has a life outside, a family, from which he has been so alienated that his wife killed herself, which makes me judge her pathetic since she never confronted or left him. Pain is all that makes you real. William is also pathetic and wants Dolores to free his geeky soul while she simply doesn't want to go mad. Charlotte and Lee are despicable people. Ford is a terrifying megalomaniac with a god complex. Felix and Sylvester are pathetic half-people, who seem, a la Brave New World, to have "been sorted in the embryo" for grunt work due to lack of intelligence. Elsie and Theresa, the only human beings with even a spark of true feeling, are both dead (yes, Elsie is dead - the shot before you see Bernard as the one attacking her is off her feet off the floor), destroyed by the only other person who seemed to have any real humanity.
While I can appreciate the puzzle box aspect of a tale (though this one is poorly executed since there are numerous instances of narrative delay that results in senseless actions by characters), and the meta commentary on story (which is undercut by the fact that the story they are using to comment on story is not particularly engaging), what exactly are we supposed to care about in this story? Whether William is the MiB? Since neither of them has a compelling human story, I can't make myself care if they are each other or not. Whether we are watching multiple points in Dolores' story? So what if we are? How does that make the story good? Will Ford be brought down by Hale/Delos - both are horrific options so how can I root for either? I was caring about Maeve there for a minute, but this episode's delaying took the steam out of her narrative.
I really wanted to like this show. I think they have much intriguing material to work with. But I fear they got caught up in their own cleverness and forgot to tell a good tale.
I welcome other viewpoints, but it seems the fandom is thoroughly engaged in puzzle solving, but I think for me there is such a thing as too much mystery if it is not grounded in solid character building and story telling. What do you think?
I couldn't read beyond suicide making the character pathetic. That's an incredibly reductionist opinion of a very serious and complicated issue. As someone who has direct experience with suicide victims and their survivors that's a dangerous belief system that makes things worse, not better. If that is your true opinion of suicide I suggest you do some research and hopefully learn more about mental illnesses.
One of my best friends and two relatives have committed suicide and all three still haunt me so check your assumptions and sanctimonious superiority please. I would not discuss the horrific pain of real suicide in the midst of dissecting a fantasy tv show. I described how the story simplified suicide and used it as a weak plot point within the context of a depiction of humanity that is alienating and pathetic.
I'm sorry for your loss. It's a terrible wound. You're not the only one who has experienced it so I hope you would understand that your line
"his wife killed herself, which makes me judge her pathetic since she never confronted or left him" is not easily read in the way you explain it quoted here. It's also why I stated "if" in my reply because I wasn't sure if that's what you meant, but if it was it deserved to be called out.
^^ It's funny because it's true.
I am most engaged by the awakening of Dolores and Maeve, and with Bernard's situation now that we know he is a robot. They are alive, as far as I'm concerned-- and this is likely happening to the rest of the robots in the facility as well, to a greater or lesser degree. William is a sympathetic character, but his situation is not as interesting as a group of artificial intelligences awakening to self awareness.
I think it is if you consider that his entire goal is to help them awaken, and learning why he's doing so in the future.
I have no problems with that. I have a low opinion of humanity to begin with and it's not surprising to see characters or relationships falling apart. And whether the relationships deepen or fall apart, I don't mind as long as the story is developing.
That would be disappointing . . . and clichéd. Frankly, I would prefer if both were protagonists, but in different ways.
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A (good) villain is just a protagonist from/with another point of view.
^ Yep.
The best villains always see themselves as the hero of their own story.
The best villains always see themselves as the hero of their own story.
