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Spoilers Hawkeye -Discussion Thread

Variety interview with Vincent D'Onofrio. A few takeaways...
I think you mean Entertainment Weekly. Slight difference. ;)

Kingpin lost a bit of his power because of the blip.
I was surprised to read that since I and others have be speculated that the Blip allowed him to consolidate power (especially if Matt was out of the picture). I guess we'll see how all of that unfolds in Echo.

Early on in the interview he says that Hawkeye is "one of" the projects he talked about with Kevin Feige, but he evaded the question entirely when asked directly about that.
I mean, yeah, of course he's going to deny it but I would be very shocked if he isn't the main villain in Echo.

One other take away I got from the interview: He and Charlie Cox have remained good friends since Daredevil and immediately called each other when news broke about each of their respective returns. :D
 
The posts I quoted were trying to figure out how both Laura Barton and Bobbi Morse could both be Agent 19 and/or Mockingbird, but since AoS never called Morse either of those things, there is no need to figure it out.
But you quoted my comment about wanting to watch Rogers the Musical just before that comment, that’s what puzzled me. It seemed a bit out of place.
 
I was surprised to read that since I and others have be speculated that the Blip allowed him to consolidate power (especially if Matt was out of the picture). I guess we'll see how all of that unfolds in Echo.

Of course, along with everyone else, half of the people in Kingpin's organization puffed away into dust. Who knows how disproportionate the random nature of the snap was to Kingpin's organization. So much of his power is dependent upon the people that he controls. But when half or possibly more of those people suddenly turned to dust? Not to mention rank-and-file thugs and criminals. And what of Vanessa?
 
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I wonder how much power the Track Suit Mafia has in Kingpin's criminal empire is based on how many people he lost during the Blip? They stepped in to fill a vacuum left when more professional and refined criminals with connections disappeared and were believed dead.
 
It's possible everything past the first season was decanonized, but you can't decanonize any of the Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury scenes in Agents of s.h.i.e.l.d.; including the scene of him being chased by the Winter Soldier at the end of the Season 1 AoS episode which was effectively a promo for Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Of course you can. It's no different from decanonizing the Agent Carter one-shot in order to make room for the Agent Carter series. Whether they definitively and irrefutably do so remains to be seen, but there's absolutely no reason why they can't.
 
Of course you can. It's no different from decanonizing the Agent Carter one-shot in order to make room for the Agent Carter series. Whether they definitively and irrefutably do so remains to be seen, but there's absolutely no reason why they can't.
Except for the fact that they recently used footage from the Agent Carter One-Shot in Peggy's Marvel Studios Legends episode. So what exactly has been decanonized here?
 
You know, it's funny how the events in this show tie back to what Zemo was talking about in FatWS. Yelena's own little rant about why everyone will excuse any action if they hear the word "Avenger".

Much of the world has a pretty unhealthy response to celebrities, from athletes to actors to musicians to...guys who sell pillows on the Internet, for some reason...to folks who post a lot of TikToks. They are often elevated to a social status that most of them don't deserve. Not because they're generally bad people (well, the MyPillow guy is, but...), but because they have no special wisdom or knowledge due to being famous. Yet we privilege actors and rich people in a thousand different ways, including letting them get away with shit that would guarantee jail time for other people.

So Hawkeye, despite his own preferences, is one of the most famous people alive. He's known for saving the world (at least twice, although maybe people don't count the Chitauri invasion) and then bringing back half of the universe and then stopping Thanos from destroying everything afterward. His past as an assassin was already either whitewashed or successfully buried in the early days of the Avengers. Then even though he violated the Accords and was arrested again, he was out on house arrest just a few years later--almost certainly because of being an Avenger (and also maybe due to the skeletons in closets he knows about from his 20 years as a spy and assassin. Or maneuvering in the same arena by his wife, who was also a spy).

Now he's free and clear and having 100-dollar meals with his family comped. He's not as popular as the other Avengers, but that might be like being the least-popular member of BTS. He obviously wasn't under arrest or even being detained for questioning after all the damage and fighting, which means the cops didn't even bother checking to see what they should do there. And maybe we're supposed to assume that Kate and Clint weren't trying to kill any Tracksuits (Kate was definitely avoiding it), but at least a few of those guys had to die when he's blowing shit up or arrows fly into upper torsos. Yet there's nary a detective or law enforcement official standing near them wanting answers.

That these people can get away almost anything just by virtue of having powers or being seen as heroes despite their backgrounds. That privilege given to people who are capable of causing more harm individually than many could cause as a group. Hawkeye, without powers but with super-tech arrows, seems to support Zemo's theory.

Really, this is what "The Boys" was trying to say but it actually does it better because these guys are REAL Heroes and not wannabes.
 
Except for the fact that they recently used footage from the Agent Carter One-Shot in Peggy's Marvel Studios Legends episode. So what exactly has been decanonized here?

The story of how she finally got taken seriously. It's completely different in the one-shot vs the series.
 
There is a line in the song about blaming the Avengers after the battle is over. Another reference to Yelena and Zemo's points.

Regarding Clint's unwanted fame in this one, the commentary (intentional or unintentional) comparing how a white Avenger is treated and how Sam Wilson is treated in FaWS comes across as very poignant to me as well.
 
So the recently released Marvel Studios Legends episode about Peggy Carter should not be considered canon? Got it.

Why should it be? The Legends things are just promotional recaps, basically a set of standalone "Previously on..." montages and teasers for upcoming releases. Canon means the core material, the essential stories that make up the comprehensive set. That means the movies and shows themselves, not mere supplements or advertisements.
 
Why should it be? The Legends things are just promotional recaps, basically a set of standalone "Previously on..." montages and teasers for upcoming releases. Canon means the core material, the essential stories that make up the comprehensive set. That means the movies and shows themselves, not mere supplements or advertisements.
All true, except the Occam's Razor of the thing tells me that if they wanted to "decanonize" the One-Shot, they wouldn't have shown that footage. Or, for that matter, use a character established in that One-Shot in an episode of "What If...?"
 
All true, except the Occam's Razor of the thing tells me that if they wanted to "decanonize" the One-Shot, they wouldn't have shown that footage. Or, for that matter, use a character established in that One-Shot in an episode of "What If...?"

Honestly, fans obsess far, far more over that kind of canon gatekeeping than creators do. Creators generally think more in terms of "What can we use as a source of ideas for new stories?" And those can come from anywhere. The purpose of including a character in a story is not to signal fans that that character is "canon." That stuff is peripheral, merely descriptive. What matters is to tell the story.

I would imagine that What If...? included Bradley Whitford's character a) because his sexism made him a good foil for Captain Carter, and b) because they could get Bradley Whitford but not Tommy Lee Jones. Probably b) more than a). And since it's in an alternate reality anyway, it doesn't really prove anything about MCU canon.
 
If they wanted to use Chester Phillips, they could have gotten a Tommy Lee Jones soundalike the way they did for the Tony Stark, Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff characters.

And, again, you're right about what it means (or doesn't mean) for the canon, but Occam's Razor still applies.
 
There is a line in the song about blaming the Avengers after the battle is over. Another reference to Yelena and Zemo's points.

Regarding Clint's unwanted fame in this one, the commentary (intentional or unintentional) comparing how a white Avenger is treated and how Sam Wilson is treated in FaWS comes across as very poignant to me as well.
Considering the military launched a nuke that would have wiped out the city, killing millions, I've never understood that "blame." Sokovia, yeah.
 
If they wanted to use Chester Phillips, they could have gotten a Tommy Lee Jones soundalike the way they did for the Tony Stark, Steve Rogers and Natasha Romanoff characters.

Given the choice between a fake Tommy Lee Jones and the real Bradley Whitford, why wouldn't they have gone with Whitford? For essential characters like Tony, Steve, and Nat, they had to include them whether they could get the actors or not, but for supporting characters, the choice of which ones to use was most likely shaped by availability in a number of cases.

And as I said, Whitford's character was more sexist and more hostile to Peggy than Phillips was, so he made a better foil for Captain Carter. It served the story they were telling, which is the most important consideration.

And since the Legends episode about Peggy was presumably meant as a reminder for viewers before watching What If...?, naturally it included material about the characters featured in the story. That's not about "canon" gatekeeping, it's just about bringing the audience up to speed on who the players are.
 
Considering the military launched a nuke that would have wiped out the city, killing millions, I've never understood that "blame." Sokovia, yeah.

You could argue Thor carries some responsibility for Loki being able to do what he did. Though most people probably wouldn't know anything about that.

Plus there's the part where SHIELD attracted Thanos in the first place, and since the Avengers are basically a shield project at first it's not going to be easy for everyone to separate them conceptually.
 
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