Have You Even Known Someone Who Committed Suicide?

[Sephiroth]

A guy in my unit, in Afghanistan ate his M9 shortly after an incident at a checkpoint we had setup, a car had ignored our warning shot, I shot the driver, my bullet overpenetrated and hit the drivers 5 year old daughter who was in the back seat, the image of that girl realy got to him

 

[Hermiod]

One of my (sort of) relatives committed suicide a few years ago (he was my Grandfather's Brother's adopted son).

 

[Ashu]

A girl I knew in grade 9 shot herself with her dad's hunting gun. I swear half the city was at her funeral.

 

[Goliath]

I had an acquaintance once who committed suicide literally by blowing himself up.

Unfortunately, he botched it, and lingered for days afterward, in intensive care.

Agreed, but this may be a good place to make a wider point, as this illustrates the logical end of nullifidian/secular ethics quite well, given the number who populate this board.

That is a filthy lie, and a libel on all non-religious people.

 

[sidious618]

Agreed, but this may be a good place to make a wider point,

It's not and I can't possibly see how you think it could be. Besides it being incredibly insulting, it's also incredibly crass.

 

[ThunderAeroI]

I have personaly known four people who have off'd themselves, and in each case I have a hard time really understanding why they selected that option but one.

In the case where I understand their motive, he had always dramed of being in the Air Force, he applied was accepted, then they found out he had diabeties and they took him away from ever having flight status. He off'd himself the next day. When I say I understand his reasons, what i should really say is, I understand how that must have hurt him and his life goal was taken away from him. It's in those times we need friends the most to bring us back to reality.

In another one of the situations it was a mother of a young daughter. She was in High School she lost alot of money, her parents were worth nothing and her life was crushing her. I never talked to her but once, the day before she off'd herself. She was casually bring up conversation and I disreguarded her as I tried to mack on a girl in my class. I still feel like I could have stopped it from happening right there.

 

[Peacemaker]

I had an acquaintance once who committed suicide literally by blowing himself up.

Unfortunately, he botched it, and lingered for days afterward, in intensive care.

Agreed, but this may be a good place to make a wider point, as this illustrates the logical end of nullifidian/secular ethics quite well, given the number who populate this board.

That is a filthy lie, and a libel on all non-religious people.

Agreed, but this may be a good place to make a wider point,

It's not and I can't possibly see how you think it could be. Besides it being incredibly insulting, it's also incredibly crass.

1. "Nonreligious" and "nullifidian" aren't convertible.

2. Notice that what Steve actually did was quote from nullifidian literature itself, the literature is quite clear: it's better not live than live at all. If you have a problem with what Steve's commentary has to say, then by all means, man-up and Steve and I will gladly chat with you about it in the combox of that post. I've invited you to do before, I'll do so yet again. That post is still on the front page at Triablogue. Let's see you actually argue for your positions for a change. If you'd prefer, I'll put up a separate post summarizing the content of this thread so far and then the two of you can play with us in the combox for awhile.

3. Upon what basis can you call anything "crass?" What reason consistent with nullifidianism can you level a value judgment against what other nullifidians say, much less any religious person? Considering that nullifidian literature is littered with frank admissions that it's ethics lead to moral nihilism and/or relativism, I should say that makes you either both inconsistent nullifidians and/or very judgmental relativists. A secular worldview logically conduces to moral nihilism. And, indeed, some secular thinkers are candid enough to admit that.


4. What I did was post in response to a poster who called another person out for making a crass comment - but such commentary actually runs throughout the literature. Here are some more zingers:

1. http://isaywhattheywont.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/5-reasons-not-to-have-children/

2.

I do not believe my theory differs very much from that of many or most people. There is a sense that my life, actions and consequences of actions amount to nothing when I am considering the value of an infinite universe. Our emotional responses to acts or states of affairs we believe have positive or negative value occur when we are narrowly focused on “the here and now”, on the people we interact with or know about, ourselves, and the animals, plants and material things that surround us in our daily lives. In our daily lives, we believe actions are good or bad and that individuals have rights. These beliefs are false, but we know this only on the occasions when we engage in second order beliefs about our everyday beliefs and view our everyday beliefs from the perspective of infinity. Most of the time, we live in an illusion of meaningfulness and only some times, when we are philosophically reflective, are we aware of reality and the meaninglessness of our lives. It seems obvious that this has a genetic basis, due to Darwinian laws of evolution. In order to survive and reproduce, it must seem to us most of the time that our actions are not futile, that people have rights. The rare occasions in which we know the truth about life are genetically prevented from overriding living our daily lives with the illusion that they are meaningful. As I progress through this paper, I have the illusion that my efforts are not utterly futile, but right now, as I stop and reflect, I realize that any further effort put into this paper is a futile expenditure of my energy.

http://www.qsmithwmu.com/moral_real...ime_imply_moral_nihilism_by_quentin_smith.htm

So, Quentin Smith would call you moral outrage against me here nothing but an illusory state of affairs. So, on that view, why should anybody take your moral outrage seriously? Libel? That's just an illusion.

3. In a commentary on Martin's work, Jeff Lowder of the Secular Outpost wrote:

This leads to the follow-up question, "On the assumption that God does not exist (and the assumption that conflicts between morality and self-interest are possible), how likely is it that the demands of morality will converge with self-interest?" Unfortunately, given both assumptions, it seems highly unlikely that the demands of morality will converge with self-interest for everyone all of the time. Why? Because if atheism is true, then metaphysical naturalism is probably true. (Although atheism is logically compatible with the existence of supernatural beings other than God, the prior probability of the supernatural given atheism is low. Metaphysical naturalism has the highest prior probability of all atheistic hypotheses.) If metaphysical naturalism is true, then there is no God and no life after death. And if there is no God and no life after death, then there are cases in which the cost of moral behavior greatly outweighs the benefits. In such cases, why wouldn't a person be justified in satisfying their own self-interest instead of the demands of morality? Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Martin doesn't discuss this question.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/martin_review.shtml

I think this is of particular interest in this discussion, since one of the objections to suicide is that it's morally wrong, but since secular ethics gets us to the satisfaction of self-interest, and that person believes it is in his self-interest to take his own life, then so what if it affects others? It's his self-interest; it's his life to take? So, the person that said that the objection suicide affects others is "bullshit" was actually right...which, I should think proves my point for me.

Remember, I'm just quoting your own literature. Got a problem with it, take it up with your own best and brightest thinkers, boys. Man-up and look the logical end of secularism in the face. Suicide isn't tragic, for such feelings are just illusions. Indeed, it's better not to live than live at all.

 

[SPOCKED]

Get the religious / non-religious bs/posturing out of this thread. It's in-your-face rhetoric. I don't want to close this thread since it's been peaceful for 3 pages. Don't want to move it to TNZ either. Last and only warning.

Closing temporarily to make sure my point takes.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Okay, the Thread is now again open for discussion. Please stay on Topic, ie the discussion of the people we have known who have committed suicide.

To be more specific, there is no place in this Thread for religious proselytizing of the kind that Peacemaker introduced. Aside from being tasteless, it's a violation of the moratorium on controversial Topics that is still in effect. The proper response to any such digressions is to ignore them or use the Notify button.

Please direct any questions to PM. Thank you.

 

[Jadzia]

Two people. I knew one of them quite well. Both were of my parent's generation, so were a lot older than me.

It wasn't as disturbing as I thought it would be to hear news like that. A surprise initially, of course, but I found that I could accept that this was the choice they had made, and I granted them respect for the fact that it was indeed their final wish.

I don't think I'll ever forget them or the circumstances of their deaths, but unlike natural deaths, with these two, I do sometimes wonder what might they be doing now had they made a different choice.

 

[Mr. Scott]

Has anyone ever seen the video of R. Budd Dwyer killing himself in front of the TV cameras? Man blew his head off with a 357 handgun? Here is more about him. The video can be found on the internet, but be warned, that it is graphic!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_Budd_Dwyer

I have had two relatives commit suicide. Not close ones, but still relatives.

My maternal grandfather hung himself in his basement. I was only about 5 or 6 when he died and don't even know his name. My parents did not tell me that he committed suicide until I was in High School, when they just blurted it out, in their blunt ways. Why the man killed himself, I don't know, I never knew him, my mother went through a time of mourning and moved on, and thankfully, I was too little to remember the event, and was staying at my Catholic aunt and uncle with seven older cousin kids to play with.

My cousin's son killed himself at about the age of 20 or so with a handgun. He's had somewhat of a tough life, although he came from a loving home, his father (my cousin) was an abusive alcoholic who liked to get drunk quite often. The son turned to petty crime, probably to support a drug habit, but was caught by the police and was looking at some serious charges or was convicted of the crime, and instead of being a man and doing his time, he shot himself in the head. I feel bad for him because I saw him a few months before, and was not a good role model for him, drinking beer, and goind into strip joints with dad, and smoking a spliff in the car on some Minnesota back country.

I cannot say that suicude is the "easy way out" so to speak, I think it takes a lot of bravery and balls to swing your neck on a rope or shoot oneselves in the head. If one wants to kill themselves, I would not choose hanging because hanging is an exact science, and one needs to know how much rope is required versus how heavy someone so as to break the neck immediately, instead of strangling to death, which is horrifically painful. Then someone has to cut you down!

A gun is messy. R. Budd made a hell of a mess. Sleeping pills might be the way to go. However, I don't think that there is a painless way to die, it is going to hurt, whether it would be cancer, heart attack, stroke, accident, or old age.

 

[DBR]

Yep, two people. Part of me is still quite numb.

 

[Kira's Mom]

Has anyone ever seen the video of R. Budd Dwyer killing himself in front of the TV cameras? Man blew his head off with a 357 handgun? Here is more about him. The video can be found on the internet, but be warned, that it is graphic!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_Budd_Dwyer

.

Yeah, I've seen it. I remember when it happened.

 

[DarkHelmet]

Has anyone ever seen the video of R. Budd Dwyer killing himself in front of the TV cameras? Man blew his head off with a 357 handgun? Here is more about him. The video can be found on the internet, but be warned, that it is graphic!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_Budd_Dwyer

.

Holy crap.. that's disgusting.

 

[Finn]

A while ago, I saw a video of some guy who was in police custody or something. There was a video feed. You could see him in the little room. He was sitting next to a little table. A cop talked to him for a while before leaving a gun on the table and walked out, leaving him alone. The suspect drank some water and put the cap back on the bottle then picked up the gun and proceed to off'd himself. I might have gotten some details wrong but one should be able to find the video somewhere like youtube.

 

[sidious618]

A while ago, I saw a video of some guy who was in police custody or something. There was a video feed. You could see him in the little room. He was sitting next to a little table. A cop talked to him for a while before leaving a gun on the table and walked out, leaving him alone. The suspect drank some water and put the cap back on the bottle then picked up the gun and proceed to off'd himself. I might have gotten some details wrong but one should be able to find the video somewhere like youtube.

Are we to believe that the cop left the gun with the intention that the suspect would shoot himself.

 

[Bears Discover Fire]

My sister attempted suicide in the 9th grade in the aftermath of a fight with my dad, where he told her she was a worthless mistake and better off dead. I can't say I blame her for trying after an outburst like that.

My mother had a friend who attempted a homicide/suicide during an Effexor-induced psychotic break. She tried to stab her husband in the skull with a butcher knife before jumping off her balcony. Fortunately, she was unsuccessful with both.

I speak not just from this experience but my own 5 year bout with med-induced psychosis and suicidal compulsions when I state my opinion that psychiatric drugs are mostly worse than the disorders they're meant to treat.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Yeah, I've known someone who killed themselves. Their ex waited a whole 7 months to marry someone new (even flew out to Hawaii to get hitched, probably using their deceased partner's savings). So all that "they could never get over it" business is crap. Between the two of them, they killed my belief in everything.

I wish I could say that incident made me never consider it myself, but I'd be lying. Life goes on, either you can stand it or you can't. Sometimes it's a daily struggle, but remember, as Kirk might say "All we have to do is to say we won't kill ourselves today!"

I speak not just from this experience but my own 5 year bout with med-induced psychosis and suicidal compulsions when I state my opinion that psychiatric drugs are mostly worse than the disorders they're meant to treat.

I feel the same way. The person I knew was on anti-depressants, too. They failed. Their shrink failed (can you sue those fucks for malpractice?).

 

[SeerSGB]

I know that if I was on the meds I need for my physical condition, that one of the side effects is "suicidal tendencies" and "depression". I just say "eff it, I'll deal with the pain and the other problems"

 

[archeryguy1701]

One person. Last November, a girl hung herself in my dorms, and i was one of the involved RAs. I didn't know the girl personally, but i knew of her, and we had said hi to each other before while crossing paths. Seemed like a nice young lady, and it's unfortunate that it had to happen.

Apparently my mom was close a couple years back. I guess she was getting more and more depressed, and she was at the point of writing a letter to one of her friends saying what she wanted done with everything when she figured out that it was some sleeping medication that she was put on. She stopped the drugs and as far as I'm aware she's been fine since.