Has the Roddenberry Vision of " Trek " become an Anachronism?

[Temis the Vorta]

Personally I think DS9 already ruined the Roddenberry format. They went to a dystopian serial.

Please. Read some real dystopian works like Nineteen Eighty-Four or Brave New World or Fahrenheit 451 or The Handmaiden's Tale and then tell me with a straight face that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was a dystopia just because it didn't present an idealized future.

QFT.

DS9 was too mild a "dystopia" to count as anything but the same optimistic philosophy Star Trek has always espoused. It wasn't pessimistic, it was just more honest and mature compared with the happy-plastic-people approach of TNG, VOY and the first three seasons of ENT.

 

[Paradon]

I like DS9 and the TOS movies the best.... However, I think DS9 is a little too edgy and always in a somber mood. [laugh] I mean...yeah, people do things that are weird and ridiculous, but it doesn't mean they can't have a lighter and down-to-earth sense of humor...that are even hilarous.... Everybody do stuff, but only a small percentage of people truely belong in prisons. Kirk has very a good sense of humor, if ask me.... I think that's how a normal humanbeing would behave.

 

[Sci]

Personally I think DS9 already ruined the Roddenberry format. They went to a dystopian serial.

Please. Read some real dystopian works like Nineteen Eighty-Four or Brave New World or Fahrenheit 451 or The Handmaiden's Tale and then tell me with a straight face that Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was a dystopia just because it didn't present an idealized future.

Fine maybe 'dystopian' is slightly too severe. But the fact remains that it became a serial about a war. And thats not at all utopian.

Of course it's not Utopian. But so what? Star Trek is not supposed to be Utopian. It's supposed to be about a better future, not a Utopian future. I mean, just look at TOS -- Captain Kirk's Federation has species tensions between Humans and Vulcans (all those anti-Vulcan slurs), internal divisions amongst Federation Members ("Journey to Babel"), a legacy of political instability and mass violence ("The Conscience of the King"), and two cold wars with major foreign powers (the Klingons and the Romulans).

Star Trek is about a better future, not a perfect one.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It seriously flirted with utopianism, especially in TNG.

I remember from one interview where an associate said Gene Rodennberry's original idea was that in the future, there were NO conflicts between humans-at all.

The skirts for both men and women.

And then there's idea that money doesn't exist on earth in the future (humans work to better themselves).

Advanced technology to provide all basic needs.

Who wouldn't want all of this???


However, I've noticed that in order to create watchable episodes, they had to include these concepts, greedy humans or aliens, all types of personal conflicts etc.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I didn't really read the whole thread, so pardon me if I repeat any ideas.

I think the TMP/TNG Roddenberryism of "we're so evolved, that evolved sensibilities constantly shoot out our butts" isn't anachronistic per se, but it recieved some much-deserved dressing-down in DS9.

IMHO, seeing people striving to be better than modern man is more enlightening, more entertaining, easier to connect with, and more inspirational than seeing people being perfect to begin with.

Conflict is what humanity THRIVES on. It spurs us to innovation, drives us to try new things. we see this with Kirk, Spock and McCoy; the conflict between the three of them is what drives the show as they debate, speculate, and act as a group. And we see in Star Trek V... Jim Kirk NEEDS his pain. It's hard to have pain and conflict in a perfect society. People would become apathetic and unimaginative otherwise.

 

[Myasishchev]

The skirts for both men and women.

Rome: utopia?

Anyway, fiction can be utopian without the setting being perfect. Trek is highly utopian in its outlook. Even DS9.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I heard they knew how to party though, lol.

Well, when you go into future thinking that, it's gonna be interpreted as an Utopian statement, I think.

It seemed more like "look at us in the future, the sexes are equal. both the women and men can wear skirts and it's no big deal!"

And it wasn't as big a deal, really, but it was dropped after a few episodes, obviously the viewers or maybe the producers weren't buying it.

I saw a movie called Starship Troopers not too long ago.

It's set in the future, and had some of the same elements that Trek has-complete racial harmony, complete unity and equal treatment of the sexes.

The males and the females shower together and share the same quarters.

The only thing was, there was interpersonal conflicts, there was a strong (and funny) military theme and propaganda throughout the movie-which Trek would frown on.

 

[T'Girl]

I saw a movies called Starship Troopers not too long ago.

The book was better, and more utopian than the movie.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I saw a movies called Starship Troopers not too long ago.

The book was better, and more utopian than the movie.

I heard about the book too. I never paid much attention to the movie (1998) but after watching it, it grew on me.

Kind of ahead of its time as far predicting trends like the internet.

I might read the book too.

 

[Arpy]

One of the things I don't like about the characters using current colloquialisms and acting like contemporary human brings is that it suggests that the future will be just like today only in space and with Klingons. TV has this habit of creating ideal worlds in which everyones likable and clever and good but it isn't necessarily connected to the world and time they live in. One of the things I like about Trek's formal dialogue and unclear culture is that it allows for the mystery of the future. All of us suddenly plopped into a world of equitable laws and material wealth would not result in the Federation. Nor the Ferengi Alliance or Romulan Empire or what have you.

 

[Nightdiamond]

In the 60's through the 80's the Utopia or better future idea was the main drawing power of Star Trek.

There were so many references to how backwards the 20th century was or how advanced the 24th was, like TV being obsolete, the cold was something 'people used to catch', or how people used a strange thing called lipstick or chewed gum, or drank too much etc.

I think only around the mid 90's did it began to focus more drama, conflict and soap opera like storyline, and the Utopia took more of a background.

Then a few years later, we see people addicted to things, plotting, catching even weirder diseases than the cold...

Even holodec addiction- is that so much better than watching two dimensional TV a lot?

Did Trek betray its own premise, hmmmm???.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Nope. The utopian society of the Federation often took center stage in DS9, where it was mocked (Root Beer), condemned (the Maquis) and criticized, ("It's easy to be a saint when you live in paradise"). But there was also praise in there - it wasn't dystopic. DS9 helped us see the value of additional perspectives - this lesson can immediatley be summed up by Nog's explanation fo the Ferengi spiritual idea of the Great Material Continuim. Our racist heroes have all along thought the Ferengi to be a people made totally up of swindlers, but just think that there are many of them throughout the universe doing what they do for the benefit of all sentient life forms. We weren't limited to only the viewpoint of career Federation starfleet officers.

So, if other shows embraced the idea of being more evolved and morally superior, DS9 embraced diversity.

If Star Trek betrayed its premise, it was after TOS, when people were no longer striving to be better, they were simply better to begin with. Star Trek is at its best, a morality play, and you can't have a good morality play unless your protagonist(s) learns something. Otherwise, it's a play about a dumb protagonist who doesn't learn anything.

DS9 took it a bit far at times, but its still a very utopian show compared to a lot of contemporary S/F.

 

[RandyS]

It seriously flirted with utopianism, especially in TNG.

I remember from one interview where an associate said Gene Rodennberry's original idea was that in the future, there were NO conflicts between humans-at all.

The skirts for both men and women.

Who wouldn't want all of this???

Me. It's okay for women to run around half naked, but not men.

Trust me on this.

 

[Arpy]

Trust this man too - if they've got the legs for it, men look fine kilts. You'll hear the same from William Wallace, Julius Caesar, Hernan Cortez, Henry VIII and billions of others.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Ok, about who wouldn't want all of this, scratch the part about unisex skirts .

It might have made Scotty happy though, but I'm just going to go ahead and say it- it simply looked too weird.

A kilt, toga maybe, but the cosmic cheer leader outfits?

I see what they were doing, but after one series and five movies, they tried it too late.

This was a perfect example of visually demonstrating Utopia - "we share the work, and even the same clothes".

Would you want to see Worf wearing those? And what if Worf had no problem with it, how disturbing would that be

 

[T'Girl]

A kilt, toga maybe, but the cosmic cheer leader outfits?

Oh yes, because the flowing blue dress that showed off Marina's hips and sashaying ass was so less sexist.

 

[Navaros]

I don't agree with the OP equating TOS to TNG. They are not similar at all, aside from the one, superfluous, commonality, that both have a ship called "Enterprise."

TOS was bold in a way that TNG wasn't. "Gene vision" applies to and lessens the quality of TNG and VOY, but not TOS.

in later years the more popular sci-fi shows are those that are dark,brooding and have deeply flawed " hero's/heroine's "

I do not see any evidence of this. What shows would you name as "popular" that are like this?

I agree with the sentiment behind your premise. I'd re-state it as: new shows that try to ape TNG and VOY's "no conflict" policy would never work. They didn't work on TNG and VOY, (despite TNG's popularity, they still do not work from a storytelling perspective), nor could they work on any other show.

However, it seems that you are implying that they should be making shows at another end of the extreme, which is not a good idea either. A hero does not have to be "dark" and "brooding" to make it a good show. In fact, most people won't watch a show like that, if that is all the hero is.

Yes, a hero should have to make tough decisions from time to time where all the choices are bad - that's good storytelling. "Dark and brooding" do not have to be linked to that on a continual basis, though.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

One of the things I don't like about the characters using current colloquialisms and acting like contemporary human brings is that it suggests that the future will be just like today only in space and with Klingons.

Yeah, we call that Star Trek.

 

[xortex]

I don't want to understand anything other than metaphysically on a subconscious level. You have the orange people over there. There's alot of friction with that guy and that race over something. That guy or race reminds me of my uncle Charlie. We all have a tech device like that somewhere deep down inside us. What's not to understand? You're suddenly a 5 year old again.
The more abstract the better from the language and future speak to the events, knowlege, behaviour, plotline, protocol, and everything else, etc, etc., I don't want to know about what I already know. TNG preached to itself. I can put 2 and 2 together to see what's behind the complexities and concepts.
Understanding it totally all too well, being able to take it apart and not being able to or wanting to put it back together again, like Humpty Dumpty is another way of destroying it and it's mystical cumulative effect. Nobody wants to suspend disbelief anymore precicely because of episodes like 'a Night in Sickbay' and aliens in general.
Take it from a stupid smart guy.

 

[Amaris]

A kilt, toga maybe, but the cosmic cheer leader outfits?

Oh yes, because the flowing blue dress that showed off Marina's hips and sashaying ass was so less sexist.

I always thought she was at her most beautiful (and professional) when she wore the standard Starfleet uniform (all too rarely).

As for this thread, I'm just going to agree with Dennis and save myself a lot of time.