Han Solo From SWANH vs. Han Solo From SWTFA(BEWARE MAJOR SPOILERS
- Thread starter TRON JA307020
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I cried. It was immensely touching to see the hope on Han's face and the turmoil on Kylo/Ben's. I believed that he hadn't made the decision to kill Han until the Starkiller drained all the energy from the sun and it looked as though the Resistance would be destroyed.
This is a contradiction. If it's obvious, it isn't a surprise. Furthermore, just because something is telegraphed, that doesn't disqualify it from being poignant.
That was the scene, yup.
Not necessary. Also, contrary to the intent of the scene.
See, now, that's the point, entirely. I'm sure it was obvious to Solo, too. He was doing it for Leia. He was doing it for his son. It was the biggest risk he'd ever taken in his life. If he'd succeeded, it would have been the biggest reward.
Therein lies the tragedy of it all.
This bit of realism is one of the most compelling elements of the film. Han's days of swashbuckling are clearly behind him. And yet, in just a few scenes, a few moments of daring, he makes an incredible contribution to the fate of the galaxy.
Despite the crushing history of his past, despite him being broken and adrift, he finds a purpose and dies in what is arguably his most selfless act - a perfect bookend to his introduction by blasting Greedo.
Yes, it was sad - tragic - that his final gamble was unsuccessful. That his own son was the means of his death. But in the words of a wise Jedi: Whenever you gamble, my friend, eventually you lose.
You wish you could just wish it away?
Your opinion. Not shared by the filmmakers. Nor myself.
I thought the moment was beautiful, tragic and heartwrenching all at the same time. I hate that Han died but I think the moment works and makes sense in the context of the story. I've accepted it. He followed the same path as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan before him. He is, at the end of the day, a fictional character. I can go back and watch 4,5,6 and (eventually) 7 whenever I want. But to each his own.
Just my $0.02.
You are right, but at the same time, Star Wars is very much a fairy tale and a fantasy. We saw Luke conquer his dark side in ROTJ and Han become a selfless guy over the course of the original films. I would like them to remain upstanding, even if the rest of the galaxy has gone to hell. While watching TFA it did strike me that they might turn one character in a deadbeat dad (shades of Superman Returns but even worse because at least Superman didn't know he had a child on the way), and the film did have Han running away. And Luke did likewise. A potentially dark or depressing way to treat heroes Abrams supposedly admires.
It's like we needed Abrams on the prequels, where the shades of gray might have worked even better, than for the post-ROTJ films.
As for Han's death scene, I liked the cheek touch at the end. But yeah it was a telegraphed death. I realized early on that Harrison Ford was in the Alec Guinness role-to some extent-and I knew that Rey just had to be there at his death. I'm not sure how I would've done Han's death differently. Would he have tried to take Ren out? Or maybe was just stalling for time while Chewie, Rey, and Finn set more bombs? I can't see him going after Ren guns blazing because he wouldn't have done that to his son or to Leia. Perhaps though if his death had been a sacrifice to stall for time it might have served a greater purpose and let Han go out on something of a sly/cynical note.
Well said. I agree that SW being a fairy tale/sci fi/fantasy that I really wanted our original heroes to still have some of that hope and strength. We only saw Leia, Chewie and C3PO as virtually the same but the two main male leads Luke and Han were both shattered and left Leia holding the bag for Petes sake. It just didn't jive with me. I did go see the movie again and like the good bits with Han and Chewie but still can't get over the fact that Han would put himself in such a dangerous area with a known murderer even if it is his son. He should let Kylo walk to him. He could have grabbed the little shit by the scruff of the neck with Chewie aiming his bowcaster for extra security, knock him out and bring him home to either be evaluated by Luke or put on trial. Instead he walked to Kylo without even putting his hand on his blaster just in case and his son easily fooled him. Not the Han we all knew and loved.
I fear Luke will be just as damaged and that's what will end him. Depressing. All that hope our heroes had to save the galaxy was all for nothing.
I agree. Han knew full well when he stepped out onto that walkway that he could very easily be dead soon. He (and Leia) wanted Ben back badly enough that it was worth the extreme risk.
^^ That post (the one above Tosk's) contained a lot of wishful thinking.
And is dead wrong about "the Han we all knew and loved."
The catwalk scene is the culmination of his journey from selfishness to selflessness. And to truly be selfless, one has to be unconditionally open to rejection and harm. I happen to agree that it was wrong for Han to run and hide for so many years. But this was his atonement for running and hiding - driven home by Leia's insistence that Han, when he confronts Ben, "bring him home."
I call it the most heroic act of Han's story.
And is dead wrong about "the Han we all knew and loved."
The catwalk scene is the culmination of his journey from selfishness to selflessness. And to truly be selfless, one has to be unconditionally open to rejection and harm. I happen to agree that it was wrong for Han to run and hide for so many years. But this was his atonement for running and hiding - driven home by Leia's insistence that Han, when he confronts Ben, "bring him home."
I call it the most heroic act of Han's story.
We are talking about a guy that left and went back to smuggling for years and left everything behind. If he knew there was an extreme risk why didn't he take some type of precaution? Why walk right up to him and stand about a foot away from someone just a day ago he said was lost to him and Leia? He knew his son was a murderer. Sorry but even if its you kid a killer is a killer and you have to know where to draw the line.
You and Han disagree, I guess.
Aye. I feel like we're really missing the very argument of Han's selflessness here. Fatherly love could contradict denial of Ben (hence the running and abandoning Leia), but by that point, Han seeing Ben for the first time in years meant that his paternal feelings overrode his denial. And it could be the thing that starts Kylo Ren's path back to the Light for the rest of the trilogy; for Han, if his death means the gradual redemption of his son to save him from the Dark Side, then so be it. This is the guy who resisted Imperial torture way back in Episode 5, for one thing, so he may be many things, but a traitor is not one of them, and giving up on his son would, in a sense, be paternal betrayal. He had to give their relationship one last, ultimate try.
On a personal note, I kind of projected my dad onto Han, when Han caressed Ben's face for the last time. In a sense, I've a renewed appreciation for fathers, and my dad in particular. A normal dad already goes through a lot for their children, and I'm probably going to get to that point soon. But with all the shit that Han, Leia, and Ben have gone through ... that pain must be unimaginable. We're already talking about an intergenerational epic of a space opera here with at least 60 years of Skywalker history; plunking a family down into the middle of mystical interstellar warfare has got to be stressful.
Well for me that's what made the scene so damn gripping and suspenseful in the first place. When he walked out there both he and the audience knew there was a really good chance he wouldn't survive, and that he was taking too big a risk. And yes, there had also been enough foreshadowing earlier to know what Kylo meant when he asked Han for "help." That was all obviously done on purpose by Abrams to create even more tension, and I thought it worked perfectly. And my heart was pounding through the whole scene as a result.
I may have had some issues with the movie, but Han's final scene I thought was handled pretty much perfectly.
TFA Han suffers from lack of background information which makes everything that happens or are presented as facts seem kinda hollow.
Han and Leia are separated because Ben turned to the dark side.. well ok, that happens but we never actually get to see the argument, see the hurt in each other's eyes and everything else that actually happened that killed of their great lovestory.
The same problem applies to Han and Ben/Kylo Ren. We have never seen the arguments between them, the developments so Han's death doesn't carry the weight it should because we know so little of what lead up to it for him to try to get Ben back and risk his life.
The only time when it truly felt like Han was when he first appeared and saved the Millennium Falcon with that huge transporter and those bad guys showed up. Han making shady deals, trying to weasel out of them and failing so he has to improvise.. that is how Han is and should be and it was fun to watch this (i liked the escape on the Falcon especially when he and Rey are starting to work as a team trying to get the Falcon moving),
Given that Ford won't be playing Han in the sequels anymore (i think it's a safe bet) we will not see the entire background that let to the state of affairs in TFA so it all seems quite weak.
It's the old writer's problem - "Show, don't tell!"
Han and Leia are separated because Ben turned to the dark side.. well ok, that happens but we never actually get to see the argument, see the hurt in each other's eyes and everything else that actually happened that killed of their great lovestory.
The same problem applies to Han and Ben/Kylo Ren. We have never seen the arguments between them, the developments so Han's death doesn't carry the weight it should because we know so little of what lead up to it for him to try to get Ben back and risk his life.
The only time when it truly felt like Han was when he first appeared and saved the Millennium Falcon with that huge transporter and those bad guys showed up. Han making shady deals, trying to weasel out of them and failing so he has to improvise.. that is how Han is and should be and it was fun to watch this (i liked the escape on the Falcon especially when he and Rey are starting to work as a team trying to get the Falcon moving),
Given that Ford won't be playing Han in the sequels anymore (i think it's a safe bet) we will not see the entire background that let to the state of affairs in TFA so it all seems quite weak.
It's the old writer's problem - "Show, don't tell!"
Eh, I didn't have much trouble filling in the blanks with regard to what happened between Han and Leia, although I agree it does feel like we missed an awful lot there between the events of ROTJ and TFA (which should be even more apparent when watching the movies back to back in the future).
Still though, I'd rather keep things a bit vague like TFA did than have everything spelled out to the nth degree like we saw with the prequels. And it does seem a bit unavoidable considering how much time has passed since ROTJ.
Still though, I'd rather keep things a bit vague like TFA did than have everything spelled out to the nth degree like we saw with the prequels. And it does seem a bit unavoidable considering how much time has passed since ROTJ.
We do, though. Starting with their first reunion ("I saw him. He was here. I saw our son.") and continuing to Leia's little speech about not wanting to say goodbye (that "some of it was pretty good").
In any case, I find a lot of the "Han should have been..." argument to be little more than wish-fulfillment that ignores the reality that people (and characters) do in fact change as a result of traumatic events. I found Han's changes to be not only plausible, but quite compelling, too.
You have to consider that to them and everyone else, Ben Skywalker is now dead. The death of a child, especially if you are partly to blame, can fuck a relationship up pretty badly. Han found it easier to deal with it by returning to his old work, I like to think Leia was working in the New Republic and decided to volunteer her services as a General in the Resistance after that. I think Luke will expand upon the background of it in the next movie, you need to keep exposition to a minimum at times especially explaining 30 years of backstory..
Solo + Organa = Skywalker??
no i made a mistake
I would have been more surprised if Abrams would have had Han survive the first movie and met Luke at the end. Second movie bring on Hans death with Luke somewhere in the vicinity and at that point seeing what Ben did gives Luke a even stronger reason to get back into the resistance/new republic. Hans death basically becomes a rally cry. Instead Abrams did what everyone said he would do 2 years ago by killing Han off in the first movie. Sure its still going to happen with Luke training Rey but Han went out in a wimper. It wasn't acknowledged much even from Leia herself. By the time the second movie comes out to see Lukes sadness at Hans passing will be muted.
Maybe Harrison didn't want to be in a second film so it might not be all Abrams fault but if they have any flashbacks with Han in the second film there is no excuse. Flashbacks in a SW film have never been done so we will have to see what the next director/writer has in store. Man I hope he doesn't do the next obvious thing and have Luke die already in the second film.
I'm thinking this is a take on Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey with Kylo Ren in the place of the hero. There was a part of the journey that Lucas evaded in the duel between Luke and Vader....the son must kill the father. This time around, Ren completes that step, but after his fall from being the hero (from our point of view). Killing Han Solo to end his internal conflict.
However this also brings apart another part of the Hero's Journey...Rey's journey (and possibly Finn's as well). The death of the mentor to get then to stand up to the villain and have a reason to stand up. Finn made a brave stand again was is basically a Dark Jedi Padawan of questionable training...with a lightsaber. Kylo was still wounded and probably a little distracted (his balance may be off internally), and Finn get a hit in before losing it. Rey than accepts her destiny as the hero should, and takes up the lightsaber. (I still think she's a Skywalker, as that blade should not have spoken to her otherwise....nor would R2 just turn once she arrived unless he knew something. R2 always knows.) The death of Solo was needed, both for Rey and for Kylo's character to advance in the story.
However this also brings apart another part of the Hero's Journey...Rey's journey (and possibly Finn's as well). The death of the mentor to get then to stand up to the villain and have a reason to stand up. Finn made a brave stand again was is basically a Dark Jedi Padawan of questionable training...with a lightsaber. Kylo was still wounded and probably a little distracted (his balance may be off internally), and Finn get a hit in before losing it. Rey than accepts her destiny as the hero should, and takes up the lightsaber. (I still think she's a Skywalker, as that blade should not have spoken to her otherwise....nor would R2 just turn once she arrived unless he knew something. R2 always knows.) The death of Solo was needed, both for Rey and for Kylo's character to advance in the story.
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