Gul Dukat one of the best villans ever?

[Seven of Five]

I didn't have a problem with Dukat turning to the Pah-Wraiths during his crazy period. After his daughter's death, I'd say it was a believeable reaction. He wanted to use them for his own means, which fits in with his character of old.

I was more bothered by how this turned into a Prophet vs Pah-Wraith showdown in the last episode. The Kai Winn/Dukat storyline was interesting, but used wrongly I think. The way that it developed into such a black and white story is disappointing, and it tarnishes Dukat's character somewhat. There was so much good that came before all this though, so I sort of let them off for it.

 

[Deckerd]

The very reason that Dukat and Winn were such well-written characters was squandered for a terrible storyline. That reason was that they were both conflicted characters. They were ambitious, self-deluded and charming with the ability to show grace when it suited them. They both had a lot of self-doubt which they always managed to suppress. Then we get that abominable end to their stories.

 

[Thestral]

I enjoyed Dukat all way through through... until the Final Chapter. That particular arc, as others have noted, was particular weak - because it was boring and dumb. But Wraith!Dukat wasn't all bad and I liked Dukat elsewhere in S7 - just keeping in mind the delicious villain we knew and loved died with Ziyal and went mad in Waltz, only to be controlled by the Wraiths later.

The last season was a disgrace from start to finish with very little to alleviate the garbage.

Bah. I definitely disagree, suffice to say.

That reason was that they were both conflicted characters. They were ambitious, self-deluded and charming with the ability to show grace when it suited them.

The only time Winn was ever sympathetic was in The Reckoning, part of that "descent into mythology." Except for that, she was always smarmy, self-serving and a definite villain only interested in power and manipulating people. Dukat too, but they made more of an effort with him.

 

[Deckerd]

That reason was that they were both conflicted characters. They were ambitious, self-deluded and charming with the ability to show grace when it suited them.

The only time Winn was ever sympathetic was in The Reckoning, part of that "descent into mythology." Except for that, she was always smarmy, self-serving and a definite villain only interested in power and manipulating people. Dukat too, but they made more of an effort with him.

She might rarely have been sympathetic herself but that doesn't mean she didn't ever evoke sympathy. Her antipathy to the Emissary was partly because she had never herself had a vision. She was envious but also genuinely disappointed. To become Kai without this gift from the Prophets pained her greatly and possibly drove her to act against her better judgement.

 

[Thestral]

That's legit and some genuinely interesting suff, but is from the dreaded Final Chapter, hence I left it out.

 

[Amaris]

The very reason that Dukat and Winn were such well-written characters was squandered for a terrible storyline. That reason was that they were both conflicted characters. They were ambitious, self-deluded and charming with the ability to show grace when it suited them. They both had a lot of self-doubt which they always managed to suppress. Then we get that abominable end to their stories.

Exactly. DS9 prided itself on shades of gray, but the ending was pure black and white. Winn, for all her faults, really thought she was doing right. Dukat, for all of his faults, believed he was the salvation of Cardassia.

Dukat always struck me as the type of villain who could end up being a friend. He was villainous enough, but he had seeds of redemption, and sometimes he would behave like he wanted to ally himself with you, and he did it in such a subtle way (Marc Alaimo deserves serious credit for this), that you never quite knew where he stood. It was all delightfully uncertain.

 

[Thestral]

Winn, for all her faults, really thought she was doing right.

Ahh, c'mon J. You've known people like Winn - parasites that use people's religious fervor to aggregate power.

Or maybe I'm just scarred from having seen Genesis' "Jesus He Knows Me" video for the first time.

Dukat, for all of his faults, believed he was the salvation of Cardassia.

You know who else thought like that? Hit... umm, Maggie Thatcher.

 

[Deckerd]

That's legit and some genuinely interesting suff, but is from the dreaded Final Chapter, hence I left it out.

Kai Winn's ambivalence over the Emissary started long before the final season.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think that a large part of the issue with the Pah-Wraith plot in the final chapter had to do with the production. I think it could've been told in a more engaging way, and I should not have to resort to fanwank like suggesting that those in the Fire Caves, while the Pah-Wraiths are active, experience time dilation. (In other words, it should not have dragged on seemingly for days like that, during the battle of Cardassia.) But other than the botching of the production in WYLB, I am not that bothered by it.

 

[The Dominion]

All in all, I am generally happy with the ending, even while disliking the Pah Wraiths. I think the problem was just that the Pah Wraiths were just thrown in as a dramatic plot device without much important connection. I think they could have done something very similar with the ending and had it be much better just by leaving out the Pah Wraiths.

 

[MrBorg]

He was indeed a very good villain, until he became a cultist.

 

[Seven of Five]

Perhaps, upon reflection, he should have been killed off after the Occupation arc? Waltz aside, he never really resonated again. Then this way perhaps the followers of the Pah Wraiths could have come about in a different way, to then go on and involve Kai Winn. In a different way.

Failing this, Dukat could have had Damar's awesome redemption arc. Then this way he could have carried on the amusing relationship he had with Weyoun.

 

[tomalak301]

Perhaps, upon reflection, he should have been killed off after the Occupation arc? Waltz aside, he never really resonated again. Then this way perhaps the followers of the Pah Wraiths could have come about in a different way, to then go on and involve Kai Winn. In a different way.

Failing this, Dukat could have had Damar's awesome redemption arc. Then this way he could have carried on the amusing relationship he had with Weyoun.

I wonder if it would have been a little much if they had killed off His daughter and him in the same season just a few episodes apart.

 

[Seven of Five]

Whilst I'm severely rewriting things, if Dukat was going to die, perhaps it would involve saving his daughter from Damar?

 

[Deckerd]

Damar was kind of squandered by the writers' Dukat silliness. I would have liked to see more of him as a leader before he got whacked.

 

[indranee]

^yeah and it's also made stupider by the fact that they got a really good actor (classical/dramatic) in Casey Biggs to play Damar and ended up under-using him.

 

[Anwar]

The whole Pah-Wraith thing could've still happened without Dukat becoming a crazy cultist.

After he escapes in Waltz, he just comes to the conclusion that the Prophets have to go since they're keeping Dominion reinforcements away. He knows that the Feds would stop any attempt at using whatever type of radiation that kills Prophets on them, so he starts researching other ways and comes across the story of the Pah-Wraiths.

He then pretends to become a crazy cultist to gain favor from the Pah-Wraith worshiping Bajorans, leading us to the Bajoran surgery and seducing Winn for his own purposes.

But then Winn poisons him, and the Pah-Wraiths revive him except the "Anti-Emissary" Dukat is nothing but a possessed corpse.

 

[sonak]

The whole Pah-Wraith thing could've still happened without Dukat becoming a crazy cultist.

After he escapes in Waltz, he just comes to the conclusion that the Prophets have to go since they're keeping Dominion reinforcements away. He knows that the Feds would stop any attempt at using whatever type of radiation that kills Prophets on them, so he starts researching other ways and comes across the story of the Pah-Wraiths.

He then pretends to become a crazy cultist to gain favor from the Pah-Wraith worshiping Bajorans, leading us to the Bajoran surgery and seducing Winn for his own purposes.

But then Winn poisons him, and the Pah-Wraiths revive him except the "Anti-Emissary" Dukat is nothing but a possessed corpse.

yes, that would have worked better and been more consistent with the character.

 

[Lucky]

Dukat would rank among the best villains ever for me. He was an incredibly complex character, and I loved how in season 4 and 5 they had almost turned him into an anti-hero, then they make him a villain again. But on the best villains list, Scorpius is #1.

 

[The Dominion]

^yeah and it's also made stupider by the fact that they got a really good actor (classical/dramatic) in Casey Biggs to play Damar and ended up under-using him.

I don't think he was that underused, we saw a good amount of him in the final season. He felt like he had replaced Dukat for a while.