Guinan in First Contact

[brian577]

Since it is established in TNG canon that the Borg destroyed Guinan's homeworld, it would seem to have made sense to have her in a story where the Borg are so heavily featured. Also, she would have been terrific in her well-worn role as Picard's confidant/advisor - especially in terms of how he was dealing with Worf and Lily.

Here's the thing, though: They already dredged through these issues in "I, Borg". That's one of the many things that makes FC hard to watch. Picard dealt with his feelings about the Borg. He came to terms with them, and in the end he took the civilized route. So, which part are we supposed to believe? That seasons 4-7 didn't happen? Or that Picard's judgement in I, Borg was wrong?

BINGO, he made the wrong choice and and he regrets it. Considering how many people probably died during the Borg's latest assault and the mess they made of history, I don't blame him.

We've made too many compromises already.Too many retreats.They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back.Not again!

He's angry that he comprised his resolve by saving the life of one Borg and now he's wants to make sure he doesn't let his conscious get in the way again.

 

[Sean Aaron]

BINGO, he made the wrong choice and and he regrets it.

That seems a bit too facile. There's nothing else in the film to suggest that he's rethinking that past choice and you could easily have done so with a single line of dialogue in the ready room with Riker.

 

[brian577]

BINGO, he made the wrong choice and and he regrets it.

That seems a bit too facile. There's nothing else in the film to suggest that he's rethinking that past choice and you could easily have done so with a single line of dialogue in the ready room with Riker.

Read my quote, what compromises do you think he's talking about?

 

[Admiral James Kirk]

The scene would be rewritten with Guinan. She wouldn’t have the same conversation with Picard that Lily did.

I don’t know whether it was Whoopi’s influence or what, but I think the scenes with Guinan are some of the smartest-written scenes in the TV series. I can’t imagine her saying something as lame as obvious and as lame “Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.”

Alfre Woodard's delivery of that line was pretty badass.

 

[CoveTom]

I think having Guinan in the observation lounge scene with Picard would have made a very powerful scene even more powerful. I think it could have worked well.

That having been said, I agree with the sentiment being expressed that Picard was out of character here. But, then again, he was out of character in bascially every TNG movie. Picard had dealt with his issues with the Borg on several occasions, and had always come to a different place than we saw in First Contact. He was never one for vengence, and certainly not for the cold-blooded murder of his fellow crewmen who were being assimilated. Many of whom, presumably, had risked their lives to save him back in BoBW.

Frankly, I always thought the scene in the observation lounge would fit Picard better if it had ended one line sooner. To wit:

"They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, and no farther! And I will make them pay for what they've done."

Take out the part in italics and it's the Picard I know from TNG. Add the italicized quote, and it's someone different.

 

[Mark 2000]

Read my quote, what compromises do you think he's talking about?

He's not talking about anything, that's the problem. As far as we can tell there have been no Borg incursions since BOBW. There's been no ground ceded, as Picard seems to claim. The Borg are still mostly locked up on the other side of the galaxy. The invasion of Earth in the movie is like an instafight. The Borg are just at Earth suddenly with no warning and no struggle along the way.

Someone said something about Picard being assimilated as worse than Guinan losing her planet and over half her race? I really don't think so. Plus, she's been chewing on that for over 100 years.

If Picard is deciding that the civilized solution was the wrong one then that's a very un-TNG outcome and I don't appreciate it.

 

[CoveTom]

^ Amen.

 

[brian577]

Read my quote, what compromises do you think he's talking about?

If Picard is deciding that the civilized solution was the wrong one then that's a very un-TNG outcome and I don't appreciate it.

All I can say to that is tough. His behavior has to be rationalized somehow, you can't pick and choose what's canon. If you can come up with a better explanation beyond "bad writing", I'd like to hear it.

 

[Mark 2000]

His behavior has to be rationalized somehow

Yeah, with bad writing. That's the only reasonable explanation.

you can't pick and choose what's canon.

Yes I can. Trek ended as a whole with AGT. Except my film, which is totally awesome.

If you can come up with a better explanation beyond "bad writing", I'd like to hear it.

No, It's not my job to defend the writers of bad movies. You may not realize this, but it's not your job either.

 

[brian577]

No, It's not my job to defend the writers of bad movies. You may not realize this, but it's not your job either.

Of course it's not my job it's the writers job. And since every TV Show and movie is considered canon there is no point in continuing this fanwank discussion. Now if your willing to discuss how all these movies and TV shows fit together as a whole, I'm all ears.

 

[RoJoHen]

I really enjoyed Lily, but I also wondered where Guinan was. I think I may have like seeing her in a cameo at the beginning of the movie as soon as Picard learns about the Borg's return. She doesn't need to be with Picard counseling him the entire time. Maybe a scene in the middle of the movie where we see her and a bunch of officers hiding in Ten Forward as the Borg walk by in the hallway. I dunno...could have been creepy.

 

[Mark 2000]

Of course it's not my job it's the writers job... fanwank discussion.

Um, a "fanwank" discussion would be one in which people sit down and do what you suggest and just admitted is not your job in the first place: make lousy stuff fit with better stuff.

 

[brian577]

Of course it's not my job it's the writers job... fanwank discussion.

Um, a "fanwank" discussion would be one in which people sit down and do what you suggest and just admitted is not your job in the first place: make lousy stuff fit with better stuff.

Damn, bad choice of words. Regardless, all of the movies/shows are official canon. You can argue till your blue in the face about whether they are good or not but that won't make them any less canon. Goodnight and Live Long and Prosper.

 

[Captain Atkin]

I think that, if they ever make another TNG movie, or a DVD movie for TNG, they should bring back Guinan. I did miss her in the films. She had a good role in Generations, and should have moved on to the Ent-E.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Regardless, all of the movies/shows are official canon. You can argue till your blue in the face about whether they are good or not but that won't make them any less canon.

It also doesn't mean the criticisms laid at their feet aren't valid. I have to agree with Mark that unless the Borg have been chipping away at Federation borders Picard's rant doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but then maybe they have, in which case the battle at Earth would only be the beginning.

For my part not owning the TNG films is sufficient.

 

[CoveTom]

Of course it's not my job it's the writers job. And since every TV Show and movie is considered canon there is no point in continuing this fanwank discussion. Now if your willing to discuss how all these movies and TV shows fit together as a whole, I'm all ears.

What does a debate about canon have to do with anything? I'm not suggesting that First Contact is not canon or that it be thrown out of the continuity somehow. I'm saying, though, that it was bad writing for the character and does not at all represent the Picard that I grew to love on TNG. But, then again, neither does the portrayal of Picard in ANY of the movies.

Just because something is canon doesn't mean you can't criticize or dislike it.

 

[Doug Otte]

Having Lily in FC w/out Guinan was a compromise. On the other hand, having Guinan w/out Lily wouldn't have worked.

Lily was a well-developed character, and Woodard did a wonderful job. Lily was required to show how a 21st-Century earther would react to a 24th-Century future that had survived the traumas of the 21st-Century (and she functioned as the non-Trek FC audience members for the same reason). There's no way Guinan could have provided that viewpoint. When you think about it, Lily was almost a direct morph of Nuria from Who Watches the Watchers?, and Picard's scene where he takes Lily's hand and then explains about the 24th Century has the same feel as when Picard beamed Nuria to the Enterprise and explained to her about evolution and cultural development.

The only scene that I thought would have worked better w/ Guinan is Picard's meltdown in the conference room. However, Lily's familiarity w/ Moby Dick was more plausible than Guinan.

Actually, although Guinan was a wonderful character in TNG, she stole some good scenes from Troi. If Guinan hadn't been around, I think we would've seen a continuation of Troi counseling Picard directly like we did in Season 1.

Sorry for the long post (if you made it this far!).
Doug

 

[Sean Aaron]

However, Lily's familiarity w/ Moby Dick was more plausible than Guinan.

Actually after seeing Guinan in Time's Arrow it's quite possible that she knew Melville personally...

 

[los2188]

It's great to see how many people comment when you start a thread. When I asked the question, I just always thought that Guinan should have been in a movie that featured the Borg for obvious reasons. I will say this however...Alfre Woodard did a fantastic job in this movie, and her role was rock solid and I don't think that Guinan should have replaced her in this movie. I do think that the confrontation, as great as Alfre Woodard was in that scene, would have had a deeper impact had it been Guinan in that scene. I think the mistake that the TNG films made was that often times they didn't reach out into the TV series enough outside of a few fun, but meaningless character cameos. Granted the Borg and thus this movie is completely from the tv series, to me having Guinan in First Contact was an almost gotta have element. Obviously the movie did very well without her and I commend them for that, but I still think Guinan would have added a little something extra to the movie. Let me pose one more question...what if Hugh was in this movie as a type of sidekick to the Borg queen?? I had always thought that it would have been a great twist if it were Hugh that helped Data get free but up until that point, Hugh would have been on the "bad side." I mean everything played itself out the way it did in the movie with Picard going back for Data and all, but what if it was Hugh that helped Data free himself, and in doing so gave his life for the Enterprise. What do you think?? Is that a bit too much or just not necessary??

 

[Sean Aaron]

Let me pose one more question...what if Hugh was in this movie as a type of sidekick to the Borg queen?? I had always thought that it would have been a great twist if it were Hugh that helped Data get free but up until that point, Hugh would have been on the "bad side." I mean everything played itself out the way it did in the movie with Picard going back for Data and all, but what if it was Hugh that helped Data free himself, and in doing so gave his life for the Enterprise. What do you think?? Is that a bit too much or just not necessary??

That would have been interesting and also probably would have forced a rethink of that confrontation scene to reconcile it with the "I, Borg" episode that Hugh is from. I expect they wouldn't have made Hugh a major character like that as it would assume you saw the previous episode, but if you changed the film so that the time travel aspect was removed and had a couple minutes more of flashback that could have worked. Of course you'd likely end up with a much different film. Also Hugh featured prominently in "Descent," so that might be another reason not to use him again...