Guinan in First Contact

[los2188]

I was reading something about First Contact about how Whoopi Goldberg was somewhat upset and confused as to why she wasn't included in the movie First Contact and how if anyone, she should have been in that movie. Personally, I think the role of Lily Sloane should have gone to Whoopi as Guinan of course. Do you think Guinan should have been in this movie and if so would she have made the movie better than it was??

 

[Seven of Five]

I think Alfre Woodard was brilliant in First Contact; Lily was a very well realised character. I always think, however, how awesome it would be to have Guinan or Beverley there for the big, 'Blow up the damn ship!' confrontation. It was good with Lily there, but with someone who the audience was already familiar with there would have been very cool.

 

[cblmc1296]

Since it is established in TNG canon that the Borg destroyed Guinan's homeworld, it would seem to have made sense to have her in a story where the Borg are so heavily featured. Also, she would have been terrific in her well-worn role as Picard's confidant/advisor - especially in terms of how he was dealing with Worf and Lily.

 

[Tomalak]

I suspect it would have been a case of 'too many cooks'. With the seven regulars, plus two guest stars, a villain, and some minor characters, there's already a big cast. It's fine to have Reg Barclay and nurse Ogawa make cameos, but Guinan's a major character, and Whoopi Goldberg's an Academy Award-winning actress.

If she just had a couple of scenes, people would ask "why didn't they give Whoopi Goldberg more to do?". There was no need to have her in the script.

 

[cblmc1296]

That certainly makes sense. It just seems that the 7 regulars, accompanying minor characters, guest stars, and villains were central to a lot of the TV episodes as well and, yet, Whoopi Goldberg's Guinan character was worked into many of those quite nicely - even when she didn't have a lot to do.

I think she just felt, given her character's experiences with the Borg , that it would have been cool if they had found a spot for her in FC.

 

[JarodRussell]

I just saw it that way that Guinan was no longer aboard the Enterprise-E. No civilians aboard starships anymore, especially during the Dominion War.

 

[Tomalak]

That certainly makes sense. It just seems that the 7 regulars, accompanying minor characters, guest stars, and villains were central to a lot of the TV episodes as well and, yet, Whoopi Goldberg's Guinan character was worked into many of those quite nicely - even when she didn't have a lot to do.

Well the difference is that most TV episodes focus on one or two characters each week, so everyone gets their moment over the course of a season.

With a movie happening every two or three years, each cast member wants and deserves their moment in the film. It was already hard enough thinking of things for Dr Crusher to do in the movies without brining in Guinan too.

Let's face it, Guinan gets more to do in Generations than Crusher, Riker and Worf as it is.

 

[Frontier]

I could see Guinan in FC, but only replacing Lily. I couldn't see both characters in the film. Likewise, I can't see Guinan being Picard's verbal foe in the Observation lounge. I can see those lines coming out of Crusher's mouth, but not soft-spoken and wise Guinan.

Guinan: Oh, I'm sorry. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.

Doesn't work.

Beverly: Oh, I'm sorry. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.

Works better than Guinan.

In the end, Lily was the only one who could really pull it off though. None of them could have done "Jean-luc, blow up the damn ship!" either, except Lily.

 

[Tomalak]

It would never come from Crusher. At the end of the day, she's a Starfleet officer and will always defer to him. She says in the film "one the captain has made his decision the discussion is over", and tries to stop Lilly bursting in on him.

The whole point is that it must come from an outsider, not one of the Starfleet drones. They are all as one-minded as the Borg in their own way. Lilly's individuality cuts through Picard's rage and makes him see sense at last.

 

[JarodRussell]

Guinan: Oh, I'm sorry. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.

Doesn't work.

Actually, I can imagine that really, really well. Not so much with Crusher, though.

 

[Balrog]

I think the story would have had more punch if they had Guinan rather than Alfie Woodard's character. Perhaps she could have been from the 21st Century and working with Cochrane on the Pheonix.

 

[JarodRussell]

I think the story would have had more punch if they had Guinan rather than Alfie Woodard's character. Perhaps she could have been from the 21st Century and working with Cochrane on the Pheonix.

I dunno, that would have been way too much.

 

[thetibettour]

Guinan: Oh, I'm sorry. Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.

Doesn't work.

Actually, I can imagine that really, really well. Not so much with Crusher, though.

you are right

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

It would never come from Crusher. At the end of the day, she's a Starfleet officer and will always defer to him. She says in the film "one the captain has made his decision the discussion is over", and tries to stop Lilly bursting in on him.

I remember Crusher standing up to Picard now then on the show, such as in Symbiosis, so doing that scene with Crusher does not seem like a stretch to me.

I can also easily imagine Guinan saying the Captain Ahab line, but more gently and poignantly than Lilly did.

 

[Captrek]

The scene would be rewritten with Guinan. She wouldn’t have the same conversation with Picard that Lily did.

I don’t know whether it was Whoopi’s influence or what, but I think the scenes with Guinan are some of the smartest-written scenes in the TV series. I can’t imagine her saying something as lame as obvious and as lame “Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.”

 

[RyuRoots]

The scene would be rewritten with Guinan. She wouldn’t have the same conversation with Picard that Lily did.

I don’t know whether it was Whoopi’s influence or what, but I think the scenes with Guinan are some of the smartest-written scenes in the TV series. I can’t imagine her saying something as lame as obvious and as lame “Captain Ahab has to go hunt his whale.”

Agreed, for the most part. Calling "You're a droid and I'm a 'noid" a joke does display some serious misunderstanding of "humor" on her part, though.

Personally, I think the FC cast is fine as-is. Lily worked beautifully as an everyman character from that time period and was a good outside perspective. I don't think Guinan would've fit as fluidly into the movie, and I frankly am all for the reasoning of "no civvies on starships" since that was a terrible idea in TNG anyway.

 

[Mark 2000]

Since it is established in TNG canon that the Borg destroyed Guinan's homeworld, it would seem to have made sense to have her in a story where the Borg are so heavily featured. Also, she would have been terrific in her well-worn role as Picard's confidant/advisor - especially in terms of how he was dealing with Worf and Lily.

Here's the thing, though: They already dredged through these issues in "I, Borg". That's one of the many things that makes FC hard to watch. Picard dealt with his feelings about the Borg. He came to terms with them, and in the end he took the civilized route. So, which part are we supposed to believe? That seasons 4-7 didn't happen? Or that Picard's judgement in I, Borg was wrong?

 

[Sean Aaron]

Here's the thing, though: They already dredged through these issues in "I, Borg". That's one of the many things that makes FC hard to watch. Picard dealt with his feelings about the Borg. He came to terms with them, and in the end he took the civilized route. So, which part are we supposed to believe? That seasons 4-7 didn't happen? Or that Picard's judgement in I, Borg was wrong?

Yep and the conversation Guinan and Picard have is pretty similar (though about genocide of the Borg rather than blowing up the ship) which makes the explosive confrontation in FC even less credible - unless Picard suffered brain damage from The Inner Light?

 

[Tomalak]

It was the wide screen. It made him go a bit crazy in the movies.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Guinan would have served no real purpose in the film, outside of fankwankery. Her issues with the Borg were more or less dealt with in "I, Borg". Picard, unlike Guinan, was ASSIMILATED by the Borg - he had different issues (not that your homeworld being destroyed isn't a bad start to the day, or anything).

As somebody else, we already had plenty of characters to service in this story.

Also, can the OP link to where these "Whoopi comments" came from as I don't recall ever hearing about this at all.