Gorn and Federation - First Contact?

[Timo]

Actually you're right I made one mistake. I forgot that they didn't know Nero was a Romulan until he destroyed Vulcan in 2258; 8 years prior to when the Romulans would reappear in the prime timeline.

Well, they sorta did: it was in Pike's dissertation that the ship from 2233 had been Romulan, and it was implicit in Pike's communication in 2258 that the Feds knew who the Romulans were and assumed that Nero was part of that outfit because he was Romulan. So the big discovery happens at some point between 2233 and 2258, and we don't know quite when and how. But "Balance of Terror" was a Romulan aggression that might have succeeded without leaving a trace or a clue as to the identity of the attackers; perhaps such attacks actually would have been attempted in the early 23rd century in any case, and perhaps a slightly different one backfired?

But the logic still holds in that it changed how the Federation looked at the universe It lived in; And again as admiral Marcus actions show, The Star Fleet of the Kelvin universe was a bit more militaristic than that of the prime timeline.

Or then quite a bit less militaristic, so that Marcus has to concoct a conspiracy to ignite war, and Pike has to draft mavericks to bring some fighting spirit back into the organization.

Reaction to the Narada is not evident in what Starfleet of the 2250s-60s looks like, in that timeline. But we hear it stated out loud that S31 did react. How much of that translated to change in Starfleet? Khan's work is just starting to bear fruit in ST:ID; ships like the Enterprise have apparently been completed without Narada-related input.

Kirk always met giant space monsters that were more than a single starship was able to chew. Meeting the Narada oughtn't to have been all that remarkable and game-changing, either. But perhaps it made Starfleet a tad more cautious, meaning it actually met fewer monsters in the following decades, and in backlash grew not just complacent but bold - leading to early Gorn and Romulan contact. Or then having survived the Narada made them bold outright. Or then searching for the now-missing Narada made them stumble onto the Gorn and the Romulans. Lots of options there that don't involve Starfleet actually upgunning, which is good, because when the Narada does return, they're no more prepared than they were in 2233!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[johnnybear]

Of course Starfleet knew who the Romulans were, if for no other reason than their historic battles a century or so earlier and because of their asteroid bases surrounding the Neutral Zone! But were the surviving bases evacuated of staff following BOT because later on in TEI there is no reference to them at all unless the Enterprise came in from the other side of the region?
JB

 

[Timo]

Having the war and the bases did not mean Starfeet would know Romulans had pointed ears, in the prime timeline.

So the heroes, any heroes, seeing a pointy-eared villain would not make them go "Romulan!" unless there was some independent reason to think so. In the prime timeline, this does not happen. In the alternate timeline, when this does happen, something independent has necessarily happened earlier on - but we can't tell whether it was a breakthrough in understanding who this Nero guy from 2233 was, or a contact with the Romulans of the 23rd century. Either would do.

The RNZ bases might indeed only be there at that part of the map where we see Romulus itself brushing against the RNZ. Or then they are everywhere, but quite distant from each other. After all, they are a full map square apart from each other in the "Balance of Terror" map, and we're currently best off thinking those squares are at least a lightyear on the side...

The hero ship could well slip in between the outposts whether commanded by the inept Stocker or the fake-crazy Kirk, then. And in the latter situation, it would make sense for Kirk to do the slip. And Stocker might have informed, off screen, the nearest outposts that he was about to violate the RNZ for medical reasons, in which the outposts would be of no help...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mark 2000]

I don't think the fact that Kirk didn't recognise the ship configuration or couldn't automatically recognise the species visually (the Gorn in Enterprise looked nothing like) means that the Federation knew absolutely nothing about them but with decades between each encounter, it's unlikely that every Starfleet officer would be forearmed with such knowledge.

The spirit and implication of the episode is pretty blunt. The Federation has never encountered the Gorn before. It’s not just Kirk. Spock doesn’t recognize them either. The federation put a base in their territory showing they didn’t even know it was their territory because they didn’t know they existed. This is part of the spirit of the show where they were entering into new and unknown frontiers of space. Other chapters in the franchise can retcon that if they want, but the script writer’s intention is clear.

 

[johnnybear]

A peace deal of sorts must have been established with the Gorn after Arena as we never heard of any further troubles with the Hegemony (in the series) and the Gorn are mentioned in DS9 in regards to Cestus III and not in a bad way either!
JB

 

[Pauln6]

The spirit and implication of the episode is pretty blunt. The Federation has never encountered the Gorn before. It’s not just Kirk. Spock doesn’t recognize them either. The federation put a base in their territory showing they didn’t even know it was their territory because they didn’t know they existed. This is part of the spirit of the show where they were entering into new and unknown frontiers of space. Other chapters in the franchise can retcon that if they want, but the script writer’s intention is clear.

Oh yes, the intention in the original script is clear and there are many examples of this throughout Trek history but I don’t think Burnham’s reaction cannot be interpreted in line with that. As a lawyer, understanding the rules of contractual interpretation, I would say that the correct interpreation is the the one that is consistent if the language is capable of such an interpretation, which it is.

It was interesting that the writers threw a bone for the nerds when the characters stated that they were unaware that the Trill are a conjoined species.

I was more annoyed at Lorca casually beaming around inside a starship when Day of the Dove made it clear that this just isn't considered safe. One might argue that if the warp drive was offline (and I don't recall if it was), beaming would be safe (beaming directly onto a ship with no transporter pad was safe in Corbomite Manoeuvre), but Burnham wasn't even surprised by the move.

 

[Timo]

It was interesting that the writers threw a bone for the nerds when the characters stated that they were unaware that the Trill are a conjoined species.

...But a bit odd that the hero reaction was so subdued, when Michael generally emotes a lot for a pseudo-Vulcan, and when the Trill society appeared to consider this a deep dark secret to be kept at whatever cost.

I was more annoyed at Lorca casually beaming around inside a starship when Day of the Dove made it clear that this just isn't considered safe.

Then again, it never was unsafe outside "Day of the Dove". And the rationale given there was bullshit to start with: if transporters aren't accurate to the millimeter at least, then one can't safely beam anywhere, including absolutely flat plains five hundred kilometers across (because one could then materialize with one's feet inside that plain).

One might argue that if the warp drive was offline (and I don't recall if it was), beaming would be safe (beaming directly onto a ship with no transporter pad was safe in Corbomite Manoeuvre), but Burnham wasn't even surprised by the move.

Beaming to starships other than the point-of-origin one was easy in TOS, including beaming to assorted enemy ships. We might indeed argue that there's a reason other than the stupid one given by Spock that complicates true intraship beaming, or then that there's a reason that only applies to starships careening out of control at extreme warp. But we could just as well argue that Spock was off his game that particular day, because that is an explicit plot point in that story anyway!

Taking stupid risks was what the heroes were goaded into doing in "Day of the Dove". Being afraid of unreal risks might have been right down the evil creature's alley, too, though. Several hero characters do speak absolute falsehoods in that episode, for no other reason but to spread discord and distrust (either Chekov or Sulu is callously lying about their absolute knowledge on the issue of Chekov's brother, say). Perhaps the villain made Spock and Kirk think intraship beaming was dangerous so that they would not do it and would have to engage in more cutlass-gutting? Or so that Kirk would be radiating fear for the critter to eat? Or so that Spock would press all the wrong buttons and kill Kirk, so that there would be more mayhem?

But "Day of the Dove" and "Children Shall Lead" are the two episodes where it's fine and well to argue that the heroes are telling lies for no reason other than the sheer evil of it. "Arena" is different: the Gorn are sending false messages for tactical reasons, and Starfleet may be lying to its officers to hide the existence and presence of the Gorn for strategic ones, but the heroes might be taken for their word, just like on any other day and adventure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

...But a bit odd that the hero reaction was so subdued, when Michael generally emotes a lot for a pseudo-Vulcan, and when the Trill society appeared to consider this a deep dark secret to be kept at whatever cost.



Then again, it never was unsafe outside "Day of the Dove". And the rationale given there was bullshit to start with: if transporters aren't accurate to the millimeter at least, then one can't safely beam anywhere, including absolutely flat plains five hundred kilometers across (because one could then materialize with one's feet inside that plain).



Beaming to starships other than the point-of-origin one was easy in TOS, including beaming to assorted enemy ships. We might indeed argue that there's a reason other than the stupid one given by Spock that complicates true intraship beaming, or then that there's a reason that only applies to starships careening out of control at extreme warp. But we could just as well argue that Spock was off his game that particular day, because that is an explicit plot point in that story anyway!

Taking stupid risks was what the heroes were goaded into doing in "Day of the Dove". Being afraid of unreal risks might have been right down the evil creature's alley, too, though. Several hero characters do speak absolute falsehoods in that episode, for no other reason but to spread discord and distrust (either Chekov or Sulu is callously lying about their absolute knowledge on the issue of Chekov's brother, say). Perhaps the villain made Spock and Kirk think intraship beaming was dangerous so that they would not do it and would have to engage in more cutlass-gutting? Or so that Kirk would be radiating fear for the critter to eat? Or so that Spock would press all the wrong buttons and kill Kirk, so that there would be more mayhem?

But "Day of the Dove" and "Children Shall Lead" are the two episodes where it's fine and well to argue that the heroes are telling lies for no reason other than the sheer evil of it. "Arena" is different: the Gorn are sending false messages for tactical reasons, and Starfleet may be lying to its officers to hide the existence and presence of the Gorn for strategic ones, but the heroes might be taken for their word, just like on any other day and adventure.

Timo Saloniemi

I hadn't considered that concerns over intraship beaming might have been delusions. Nice one! They were certainly inconsistent. Why have your security running down corridors if you can just beam them where they need to be in an instant?

The other issue is why are people forced to keep trudging to the transporter room? It might make sense the communicators are local quantum scanners but they often beam up people in an area by scanning from orbit. Beaming people off enemy ships while their shields are down should be simple.

The Federation might have deliberately set up an outpost without telling it's personnel about the Gorn but a lack of awareness of borders makes space feel that bit bigger.

 

[johnnybear]

johnnybear, this post is of absolutely no interest for you here so you can go ahead and skip it.




XCV330 said,

Does your keyboard have a period? Just curious.


Psst, playing a joke, someone remapped his keyboard, and swapped the period and exclamation point to see how long it takes him to notice.

Robert

What you and the guy with numbers and bold letters as his name have said is unimportant and I do not hear your words!
JB