girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say you?

[the 4th hanson bro]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

The concept that girls should play a more 'genteel' version of sports is mired in the same 18th-century mind-set that women shouldn't run because their uteruses would fall out.

You mean they won't? I knew I should have paid more attention in biology.

This idea that football is full of divers and cheats is, frankly, a load of old bollocks. Sure, you get a few and they make headlines when they cheat, but those are a tiny fraction of the millions who play professionally.

Millions? Really? I don't know how many a team will carry on the roster, but assuming 25 that means that there are 40,000 professional teams across the world.

I see no problem with it. "Guys sports" are definately more violent than the "women's sports", but if there are women who think they are up to the challenge, I think they should be able to have a go at it. The only thing is that they have to go out there expecting to be treated and hit like one of the guys.

Unfortunately, every time this comes up the discussion instantly turns to changing the rules to make it safer for the female players.

20 years ago our high school club hockey team had a female player. I don't remember her wearing a different colored jersey, or a helmet cover that meant she couldn't get hit. She played and played in every game.

In terms of high school sports it's almost a no win for the guys competing against the girls - you beat them or play better and it's expected; they beat you on a play or play better than you and it's "you got beat by a girl"

On my beer league hockey team, we've always had at least one woman playing in a men's league and they expect no special treatment or special interpretation of the rules.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Millions? Really? I don't know how many a team will carry on the roster, but assuming 25 that means that there are 40,000 professional teams across the world.

Okay, I exaggerated. However, my team, Arsenal, has over 100 professional players at various stages of development on its books. Liverpool has a first team squad of nearly 50, that's ignoring reserves and various youth development level players.

20 years ago our high school club hockey team had a female player. I don't remember her wearing a different colored jersey, or a helmet cover that meant she couldn't get hit. She played and played in every game.

In terms of high school sports it's almost a no win for the guys competing against the girls - you beat them or play better and it's expected; they beat you on a play or play better than you and it's "you got beat by a girl"

On my beer league hockey team, we've always had at least one woman playing in a men's league and they expect no special treatment or special interpretation of the rules.

I know this isn't the subject in the title, but neither are professional. A club in Italy (I forget which one) tried to register Hannah Ljungberg from Swedish women's team Umea (who, presently, are heading for another date with the lady Gunners in the UEFA Cup). At least one rule would have to be changed to allow this since FIFA rules specifically rule out mixed teams.

At "fun" level, it might be fine, but as I said, show me a woman who is mobile and athletic enough to play football and could handle being clattered by Didier Drogba. That's the benchmark for me.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Millions? Really? I don't know how many a team will carry on the roster, but assuming 25 that means that there are 40,000 professional teams across the world.

I'd estimate that there is somewhere between 50K and 100K professional football players in the world. Possibly a lot more if you define "professional" less strictly.

And everybody who's ever played football knows, that you do get hurt playing. Yes, diving is common, and even an accepted tactic in many places, but claiming it's a pussy sport just shows your ignorance of what's really going in football.

 

[JM1776]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

And ... claiming it's a pussy sport just shows your ignorance of what's really going in football.

No one who's played soccer would denigrate the effort and toughness necessary. But by no means is it even vaguely comparable with American football, and soccer fans who claim it is are delusional. It's the difference between incidental and intentional contact. The latter in soccer earns you a whistle and/or a card/ejection. In football, so long as it's clean, you've established yourself as a formidable player.

A female willing to take the risks has a right to play any sport for and in which she can qualify and credibly compete.

I would take it easy on a female competitor ... but that's my hangup, not her problem. And the first time she burned me, I'd probably learn my lesson.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

No one who's played soccer would denigrate the effort and toughness necessary. But by no means is it even vaguely comparable with American football, and soccer fans who claim it is are delusional. It's the difference between incidental and intentional contact. The latter in soccer earns you a whistle and/or a card/ejection. In football, so long as it's clean, you've established yourself as a formidable player.:

That's not quite correct (in regards to soccer), but generally you're right of course. I think they established the no-hands-rule for association football specifically to make it something similar to a game instead of one big brawl.
And you just have to look at injury stats to see that american football is more dangerous - even though they play much less than soccer player (many successfull soccer players play upwards of 400, 500 games in their professional lifetime - not counting friendlies and youth games; how many american football players can beat that?).

 

[Mallory]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

I know this isn't the subject in the title, but neither are professional.

I'm confused. Since the thread topic is specifically about school sports, why do you keep bringing up professionals?

And you just have to look at injury stats to see that american football is more dangerous - even though they play much less than soccer player (many successfull soccer players play upwards of 400, 500 games in their professional lifetime - not counting friendlies and youth games; how many american football players can beat that?).

True enough about the injuries, but that's to be expected when one of the major points of the game is to knock down or tackle an opposing player. Last time I checked, the average career length of a professional football player was less than five years. They definitely take a beating and that results in a much higher level of career ending injuries. It's also true that no professional American football player has ever played 400 games, but that would be tough considering they only play 20-24 games a year tops (including preseason and playoffs). The current record is 382 games played (excluding preseason) and is held by Morten Andersen.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Who's a kicker and there are some who would argue that kickers aren't real football players.

 

[Mallory]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

OK, George Blanda played in 340 games as a QB, kicker and linebacker (early in his career). He counts. Brett Favre would have to start every game for the next six years to top that.

 

[gblews]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Football is a full contact sport and there is no body armour to protect you save for a pair of shin pads.

That's because in Soccer, you don't really need body armour such as what is found in American football, Yes, soccer is a "full contact sport", but American football is a collision sport, meaning a sport which is based upon the initiation of violent collisions. Soccer isn't anything like that as the contact is accidental or incidental.

But to get back on topic, guys have more potential for serious injury than women, what with our genitals hanging out and all. I say if the girls can compete with the boys, let them. Eventually the sexes will separate themselves simply because as boys and girls age, the physical differences become more and more pronounced.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Football is a full contact sport and there is no body armour to protect you save for a pair of shin pads.

That's because in Soccer, you don't really need body armour such as what is found in American football, Yes, soccer is a "full contact sport", but American football is a collision sport, meaning a sport which is based upon the initiation of violent collisions. Soccer isn't anything like that as the contact is accidental or incidental.

Tell that to Vedran Corluka - and that was from his own goalie.

 

[gblews]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Football is a full contact sport and there is no body armour to protect you save for a pair of shin pads.

That's because in Soccer, you don't really need body armour such as what is found in American football, Yes, soccer is a "full contact sport", but American football is a collision sport, meaning a sport which is based upon the initiation of violent collisions. Soccer isn't anything like that as the contact is accidental or incidental.

Tell that to Vedran Corluka - and that was from his own goalie.

Incidental or accidental contact involving one or two players (all of average size and weight, I assume), correct?

 

[Hermiod]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Incidental or accidental contact involving one or two players (all of average size and weight, I assume), correct?

Correct, which is why I pointed it out. Despite the sport of football not being as deliberately violent (well, unless your name is Michael Dawson) as that thing masquerading as football Americans play, people do still get hurt and the consequences are just as real no matter what the intention.

You only need body armour in American Football because it was designed that way when the rules were created. That says more about the bloodthirstiness of Americans than it does about the rest of the world where football is the most popular sport.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

One of the Scandinavian countries had a female try out for the hockey team. Could only get into the 3rd tier or something.

Sorry but -- in the NHL, women wouldn't be able to compete well. Maybe goaltending (Manon Rheaume anyone?) but as for skating, be pretty hard.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

^^
Yeah, I watched women's hockey at the last Olympics, their deficiencies seem to be very similar to women's soccer - not so much in pure skills, control of the puck, but speed, athleticism and strength. Maybe comparable to a team of 14-year-olds playing against 17-year-olds or so.

 

[gblews]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

Incidental or accidental contact involving one or two players (all of average size and weight, I assume), correct?

Correct, which is why I pointed it out. Despite the sport of football not being as deliberately violent

...or interesting...

You only need body armour in American Football because it was designed that way when the rules were created.

No, the armour was required due to the sport's reliance on violent collisions. For instance, in the early days of the sport, no helmets were required -- until the incidence of concussions began to rise.

That says more about the bloodthirstiness of Americans than it does about the rest of the world

Thanks.

 

[Hermiod]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

...or interesting...

American Football is only interesting if you enjoy advertising.

No, the armour was required due to the sport's reliance on violent collisions. For instance, in the early days of the sport, no helmets were required -- until the incidence of concussions began to rise.

That's not a defence.

 

[gblews]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

...or interesting...

American Football is only interesting if you enjoy advertising.

No, the armour was required due to the sport's reliance on violent collisions. For instance, in the early days of the sport, no helmets were required -- until the incidence of concussions began to rise.

That's not a defence.

"Defence"?

It wasn't meant to be a "defense". You wrote:

You only need body armour in American Football because it was designed that way when the rules were created.

Not true. The earliest pictures of American football players, show the players looking like rugby players -- no helmets, little to no padding. The padding was never written into the original rules. The padding became necessry as the players got bigger, faster, stronger, and the game relied more and more on intense hitting. Equipment like helmets, shoulder pads, hip pads, begun to be used over time as the game became more dangerous.

My larger point; to imply that soccer players don't use armour so they must be tougher (which is what you did in the post I originally replied to), is misleading. Soccer players don't use armour because they don't need it. Because violent contact in soccer is accidental, not a part of strategy as it is in the American game.

If I misunderstood what you wrote, please advise.

 

[mimic]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

"Defence"?

That's the normal spelling across the pond.

Hermiod, you say flamingliberalis ignorant of soccer and dismiss her points for that reason, and yet you haven't exactly displayed your extensive knowledge of gridiron. So how about it? What's the difference between a first down and a touchdown? When does a team punt? Have you ever watched and/or played a game? A lot of times people who don't like football were never actually told the rules, so it all looks like a bunch of people hitting each other and doing other things (like punting) randomly, when it's actually far from that.

And maybe someone could tell me why it bothers so many people that Americans call football "soccer" and American football "football." I've never understood that.

On topic, girls should be allowed on boys teams if they make it through the tryout process legitimately. They shouldn't be treated any differently than their male peers.

 

[Roger Wilco]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

And maybe someone could tell me why it bothers so many people that Americans call football "soccer" and American football "football." I've never understood that.

"Soccer" has a slightly deprecative, belittling touch, but the actual reason is, that it's called football almost everywhere across the globe, in all the different languages, simply because it's the most popular sport in most of these countries. The USA are one of the few countries where a different set of rules regarding "football" is more popular, so it's understandable that you use a different name for the Association rules variant, but to foreigners' ears for that same reason calling the sport "soccer" instead of "football" simply sounds very America-centric, which also plays into the common stereotypes of Americans.

How would you feel about non-Americans using the term "fooboo" or something for "American Football"?

 

[TheArsenal]

Re: girls oon boy's sports teams in HS: wrestling, football..what say

The female body is not inherently more injury-prone than the male, and I've known females who are tougher and stronger than some males. If they want to try, let 'em try. Their body, their risk.

In sport, the female body is more prone to injuries than males. As discussed here, here, and here among hundreds of other places, women are "4 times as often in basketball, 3 times as often in gymnastics, and nearly 2 and a half times as often in soccer" to suffer knee (ACL) injuries. There are many theories including a belief that the spreading of the hips during puberty for child birth puts the knee out of alignment.

In practice, I have no problem with women playing men's sport if they are good enough. But with the heightened risk of injury, which would be compounded by playing against faster, stronger, denser men, I don't know that it is a particularly smart, nor desirable idea.

American Football v. Football (Soccer). Soccer has far more contact, and is far more dangerous than the casual observer realizes (and, it is also the greatest sport on the planet. But that's a different subject). Even so, there is no other sport - and this includes rugby - which remotely compares with the sheer power and force that exists in American football. Pads or no pads. Nearly ever play involves hitting or being hit; there is very little reprieve. And while soccer players would run circles around football players endurance wise, football players are just as fast. So not only are you getting hit, you are getting hit with large mass and speed.

In soccer, like basketball, a very good, 16, 17 or 18 year old can play in the pros. Impossible in football as physical maturity and muscle mass are essential to the game, and a youth at that age would suffer career ending injury.