News Georgiou Section 31 Series officially announced:

[F. King Daniel]

Kadin: And really, I think that we’ve all loved about Michelle Yeoh in this role, is, it’s not dark at all, and there’s something so delicious about it, and delicious about her relishing being in that part. So, our plan, it shouldn’t be dark at all, I think that we’re going to have a lot of fun with it.

In other words, they see this as "fun Michelle Yeoh show" and haven't actually given any thought to the disgusting atrocities her character comitted in season one.

Over in the Marvel universe, Loki is rumoured to be getting his own series on the new Disney streaming service. But his crimes are all attmpted this and attempted that with a body count in the thousands. Georgiou killed billions, comitted genocide and ate sentient beings.

 

[dinzy]

In other words, they see this as "fun Michelle Yeoh show" and haven't actually given any thought to the disgusting atrocities her character comitted in season one.

Over in the Marvel universe, Loki is rumoured to be getting his own series on the new Disney streaming service. But his crimes are all attmpted this and attempted that with a body count in the thousands. Georgiou killed billions, comitted genocide and ate sentient beings.

What was she supposed to do? The culture she lived in demanded those type of behaviors from the "successful." It's not a she was just following orders type of thing, it was the entire species created and sustained an evil culture thing. FFS Tilly was Killy on that side. Sure the culture of the Terran Empire is comic book level silly and exaggerated, but contrasting her cultural upbringing with the expectations in Starfleet/Section 31 is the type of story 90s Trek would do. There absolutely will be some character conflict in the show where they explore whether Georgiou is fundamentally evil or a product of her environment.

 

[DigificWriter]

If people acknowledge TNG's portrayal of the Star Trek universe and humanity's future as the "revisionist history" that it clearly is, things like this Georgeiou series become much more "palatable".

 

[Michael]

In other words, they see this as "fun Michelle Yeoh show" and haven't actually given any thought to the disgusting atrocities her character comitted in season one.

Exactly. What's interesting is that Kadin actually seems to describe the opposite kind of show everyone who's enthusiastic about this seems to expect. This won't be your dark, serious, DS9-like look at the inner workings of the secret spies of Section 31. Kadin makes it sound like it will be the whacky adventures of a quipping Michelle Yeoh.

Also, as a Niner I must protest the idea that a show about Section 31 is exactly what we want. On the contrary, while I enjoyed the idea of a secret society like Section 31 doing the Federation's dirty work in Deep Space Nine, it did work there precisely because it was used sparingly and handled with the right amount of criticism. But with the writers of Discovery you just know this is not what you are getting with this show. My feeling (and fear, really) is that the writing of this show will lack any sort of self-reflection and maturity to properly place it within the world of Star Trek.

 

[Henoch]

James Bond (my hero) kills without mercy and even with a joke. Audiences love badasses. Bring it on, Michelle.

 

[Rahul]

The Georgiou Show might not premier until Discovery finishes?
http://trekcore.com/blog/2019/01/se...-discovery-is-over-says-cbs-all-access-chief/

What does that even mean? "Won't arrive until DIS finishes"? Are they going to make the Cannibal Space Hitler show premiere in seven years? Are they cancelling DIS in the next three years? What? I think we should take the "factual" statements here with a biiig grain of salt.

Looks like the Georgiou/Section 31 show won't arrive for awhile. Perhaps backpeddling has begun?

God, I hope so!

Thank god. Hopefully it never sees the light of day. We don't need a show about the redemption of space Hitler.

Cannibal Space Hitler! You forgot about the cannibal part! That makes it extra juicy!

In other words, they see this as "fun Michelle Yeoh show" and haven't actually given any thought to the disgusting atrocities her character comitted in season one.

Yeah, they're really don't know what they're doing, aren't they?

Over in the Marvel universe, Loki is rumoured to be getting his own series on the new Disney streaming service. But his crimes are all attmpted this and attempted that with a body count in the thousands. Georgiou killed billions, comitted genocide and ate sentient beings.

Thing is: Loki has always been an ambigous character. But even then, MARVEL tries to aknowledge that: On their website, they have added on his character page that during "Avengers" - when he was in full rampage mode killing good guys - he was actually under the influence of the mind stone himself.

 

[Tuskin38]

Cannibal Space Hitler

Can you please stop saying that.

What does that even mean? "Won't arrive until DIS finishes"? Are they going to make the [Georgiou] show premiere in seven years? Are they cancelling DIS in the next three years? What? I think we should take the "factual" statements here with a biiig grain of salt.

It sound like Discovery won't go on forever.

 

[fireproof78]

Thank god. Hopefully it never sees the light of day. We don't need a show about the redemption of space Hitler.

In a franchise that espouses that human beings can grow and change and evolve I think this premise has promise.

Now, no guarantees they will succeed with it, but I struggle with rejecting the concept straight out.

ETA: Humanity is not as far removed as we would like to believe.

 

[Rahul]

In a franchise that espouses that human beings can grow and change and evolve I think this premise has promise.

Now, no guarantees they will succeed with it, but I struggle with rejecting the concept straight out.

ETA: Humanity is not as far removed as we would like to believe.

It's a matter of degree - the Japanese soldiers in your case were ordered to do so. For them to be "redeemed" is a much more believable thing than having Hitler himself star in a spy-adventure show deal with "redemption".

 

[fireproof78]

It's a matter of degree - the Japanese soldiers in your case were ordered to do so. For them to be "redeemed" is a much more believable thing than having Hitler himself star in a spy-adventure show deal with "redemption".

Is it possible, though? Or are some people beyond even the fringes of redemption. Because, if there are such people, then the future is not all together optimistic for those on the outside looking in to the Federation.

 

[Rahul]

Is it possible, though? Or are some people beyond even the fringes of redemption. Because, if there are such people, then the future is not all together optimistic for those on the outside looking in to the Federation.

Put it this way: I'm not a fan of the death penalty. There are many former terrorist leaders in prisons, and quite a few of them have actually come around, mostly because a lot of reading, access to Western Media, and simply the contrast of how they are being treated as prisoners compared to how they were treating their prisoners.

Some of these real-life mass murderers have very positively developed, even written books and stuff. And, especially for life sentences, I'm really not a fan of "cruel" prisons - they have basically fully equipped apartments, access to media and everything - they just can't ever leave.

And here is my personal opinion on that: This is fine. Thesse people have "kinda" "redeemed" themselves. They have the right for an unharmed, un-cruel life. But still, even then, I would never, ever set them out free again.

And I mean, these are mere leader of terrorist cells and mass murderer. Not genocide. We're talking about Space Cannibal Hitler herself here! Yeah, she forfeited her right to ever roam around in the world freely again...

 

[fireproof78]

And I mean, these are mere leader of terrorist cells and mass murderer. Not genocide. We're talking about Space Cannibal Hitler herself here! Yeah, she forfeited her right to ever roam around in the world freely again...

What about as an agent under constant scrutiny by an organization?

Is there anything that Georgiou could do to redeem herself in the course of the show? Or is she beyond redemption in your view?

 

[Rahul]

What about as an agent under constant scrutiny by an organization?

"Suicide Squad, but good" would actually be a possible premise for a series.
But even then, Georgiou is not like Harley Quinn (psycho, but also a victim), but more like having the "Joker" on the team - the super evil maniac that personally tortured and killed the good guys (in this case, Robin). Nobody would ever think of the Joker turning "good".

Is there anything that Georgiou could do to redeem herself in the course of the show? Or is she beyond redemption in your view?

Yes and no. As I said: I'm not against even the most evil culprits finding their own inner peace and personal redemption. But no personal redemption whatsoever can make early release from imprisonment possible. Not for such a case involving cannibalism, genocide, fascism and torture all at once. Even murderers have a minimum duration of imprisonment for their deeds. For this level of doings, the imprisonment can't be anything short of "for life". Though not in a prison like Arkham, but in one like in Sweden.

 

[fireproof78]

"Suicide Squad, but good" would actually be a possible premise for a series.
But even then, Georgiou is not like Harley Quinn (psycho, but also a victim), but more like having the "Joker" on the team - the super evil maniac that personally tortured and killed the good guys (in this case, Robin). Nobody would ever think of the Joker turning "good".

What about cultural considerations? In this instance, Georgiou did not commit these crimes against our Robins, as you put it, but behaved in a way consistent with her people's customs.

Yes and no. As I said: I'm not against even the most evil culprits finding their own inner peace and personal redemption. But no personal redemption whatsoever can make early release from imprisonment possible. Not for such a case involving cannibalism, genocide, fascism and torture all at once. Even murderers have a minimum duration of imprisonment for their deeds. For this level of doings, the imprisonment can't be anything short of "for life". Though not in a prison like Arkham, but in one like in Sweden.

Would not a more evolved society, as the Federation is often held up to be, be in a position to offer more rehabilitative efforts for personal redemption?

 

[Rahul]

What about cultural considerations? In this instance, Georgiou did not commit these crimes against our Robins, as you put it, but behaved in a way consistent with her people's customs.

She's the leader. She formulates these customs. I'm not going to exonorate any African dictator because "that's how they do it down there". I'd be forgiving for people inside the hierarchy - MU Spock, Kira - they all have parts to redemption. Cannibal Space Hitler herself? no.

Would not a more evolved society, as the Federation is often held up to be, be in a position to offer more rehabilitative efforts for personal redemption?

No matter how advanced a society is - it doesn't work without deterrents againts crimes against humanity. In this case, at least punishment for life, not matter how humane the treatment in there is. Genocide, Cannibalism and running a fascist State are simply too much to just be forgiven with a slap on the wrist.

 

[fireproof78]

She's the leader. She formulates these customs. I'm not going to exonorate any African dictator because "that's how they do it down there". I'd be forgiving for people inside the hierarchy - MU Spock, Kira - they all have parts to redemption. Cannibal Space Hitler herself? no.

One need only study regimes like Egypt's to know how they respond to change of tradition. I would recommend Ankhaten as an example.

No matter how advanced a society is - it doesn't work without deterrents againts crimes against humanity. In this case, at least punishment for life, not matter how humane the treatment in there is. Genocide, Cannibalism and running a fascist State are simply too much to just be forgiven with a slap on the wrist.

So being forced to work for an organization is not a punishment to you?

 

[Rahul]

One need only study regimes like Egypt's to know how they respond to change of tradition. I would recommend Ankhaten as an example.

That's not a good argument. We're talking about an extra-cruel dictator of a space-faring society here. There's plenty of precedence of people trying to "change" their people from the top up (though even more used as a bad excuse as to why these African dictators are "our" ones against the Communists). But that's not the case here - Georgiou was a monster. A Fascist. A Cannibal. Who liked Genocide. Yikes.

So being forced to work for an organization is not a punishment to you?

I thought we were talking about her redemption?
Yes, being forced to work for the gouvernment (in a way like in, say, "Suicide Squad") is not just punishment, but actually even injust punishment. That would make the gouvernment (Amanda Waller in SS) a very dark shade of "grey" as well!
But it doesn't change the fact that Georgiou, on a scale of "evilness" from white to black, is probably the darkest, most evil pitch black we ever had on Star Trek, ever.

 

[fireproof78]

That's not a good argument. We're talking about an extra-cruel dictator of a space-faring society here. There's plenty of precedence of people trying to "change" their people from the top up (though even more used as a bad excuse as to why these African dictators are "our" ones against the Communists). But that's not the case here - Georgiou was a monster. A Fascist. A Cannibal. Who liked Genocide. Yikes.

As well as a person who if they step out of line would be killed.
Self preservation goes a long way and lots of studies in psychology demonstrate that.

I thought we were talking about her redemption?
Yes, being forced to work for the gouvernment (in a way like in, say, "Suicide Squad") is not just punishment, but actually even injust punishment. That would make the gouvernment (Amanda Waller in SS) a very dark shade of "grey" as well!
But it doesn't change the fact that Georgiou, on a scale of "evilness" from white to black, is probably the darkest, most evil pitch black we ever had on Star Trek, ever.

I'm just asking questions here. Curious to know what would work for you on any level with a Georgiou show.

 

[Rahul]

I'm just asking questions here. Curious to know what would work for you on any level with a Georgiou show.

For me she's like King Joffrey or Ramsay Bolton from GoT. And I hate it that they treat her like Loki instead.

 

[fireproof78]

For me she's like King Joffrey or Ramsay Bolton from GoT. And I hate it that they treat her like Loki instead.

Fair enough, though I'll let you know that I avoid GoT references like the plague so I'll just nod and say yes here