George W. Bush's "The Expanse"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by slappy, May 22, 2003.

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  1. StarHarper

    StarHarper Captain Captain

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    My own, little world...
    :lol:
     
  2. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    Someone toasted his baby sister, guy. Get real. Any normal person's first reaction is not going to be to buy a greeting card for his baby sister's killers. Yeah, that would have made sense coming from the emotional Trip as his first reaction. My sister is now a charcoal pellet. Let's go forth into the expanse so that I can discuss the matter calmly with her obviously misunderstood Xindi extinguishers. Right. :lol: Of course Trip's xenophobic tendencies are surfacing. It's called drama. When you're grieving and angry and it's personal, you don't think. This is the 22nd century--not Picard's perfect 24th. The fact that it's been established that Trip does have a huge heart underneath his flaws is what makes it interesting, Plum. I'm surprised a smart man like yourself doesn't appreciate that. That scene of Trip and Reed in the hall was about two friends, one of whom recognizes that the other needs to vent his grief but is unwilling or unable to do so. It was about Malcolm trying to help a friend in need in spite of the fact that said friend is lashing out. It was the best scene of the entire episode. It wasn't about Trip being a redneck. It was about Trip not being able to accept the fact that Malcolm is right and that he needs to admit how horrible he feels losing his sister. Kudos to Trinneer and Keating for the scene.

    But I'm just a normal, stupid ENT fan, right? :lol:
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    And I have some wonderful swamp-front property in Florida to sell you . . . just to the left of the new canal that the Xindi Construction Co. so nicely put in for us. (They weren't attacking! Really!)
     
  4. J Archer

    J Archer Commodore Commodore

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    :lol:
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Er. Well yes, Trip is emotional. No, I didn't expect Halmark cards.
    Point being... he doesn't know who the Xindies are let alone if they did it. Only FG said they did. Trip just accepts this... as does the rest of the script. We know nothing about who did this... yet Trip wants revenge and doesn't care about the details. Right? Revenge is blind!
    His what??? He IS a racist?
    Drama needs more than typical behaviour from the southerner character. Why not Reed? Hoshi? Why Trip?

    And hey... even people 2000 years ago thought revenge a bad thing.
    Or contrived.
    Yes it was. The actors were terrific for once (hey, give them meat... watch 'em go!) and sure I'd expect Trip to be angry. His anger was irrational. Reed was trying to give him a rational point of view... Trip doesn't care. I was almost certain that Trip would accuse Reed of being a liberal at this point. Sure this seems like a good scene with the right emotions but Trip over does it (yet again after killing that co-genitor... hasn't he learned to think twice yet?) by ignoring the facts (And without facts you have nothing). Sub-text. Hey, not everyone sees this in the dialog. Hey, many people still think the Expanse isn't a 9/11 allegory. Go figure.

    And note Reed fails to state any of these things. The script is setting Trip up!

    Trip acts like a redneck. Screaming, drinking, ploting against a faceless enemy. Typical Californian prejudicial view of Southerners. It's what I'm seeing onscreen!

    Why couldn't Trip just be mad and sad and realize he has no outlet for his grief. Like real people who are faced with senseless death every day? I love how he and Archer sat around after the Trip/Reed scene to set up Trip having Archer as an ally in revenge. Archer says "we'll do what needs to be done" and Trip takes this as confimation. No, Archer doesn't state the obvious and tell Trip we really have no idea who did this. And yet - The mission into the Expanse is never defined as being anything other than a military operation.... against a race who might have been responsible for the attack.
    Yeah well I'm just a basher. ;)

    Guess why I don't bother to review shows anymore?
     
  6. Falmarin

    Falmarin Captain Captain

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    ^ you're expecting the characters on Ent to be perfect? I thought various view points would be healthy for a show that isn't doing to well. Not everyone acts with logic, and not every one acts like you.

    And considering this is man's first steps into space, I'd expect xenophobia to come into play, I bet it would make a few good episodes.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    no, I said the script contrived to set Trip up as a racist without any race to hate. :)
     
  8. Miss Thang

    Miss Thang Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, I think Plummikins does raise a good point. You've got someone who goes revenge-mad and slightly genocidal and it happens to be the Southerner. In the past we've had an emotionally labile, too-quick-responding, impulsive guy who does silly things and it happens to be the Southerner. Trip's been portrayed as dumb in the past--Connor Trinneer's even expressed concern about it.

    Archer's sometimes portrayed as a big dumbass, but there aren't all these markers saying, "HEY! This dude's from THE BAY AREA! He eats Bay Area food, has a Bay Area accent, and is folksy in that stereotypical Bay Area way!" Trip's had the Southerner stamp across his forehead from the pilot--down to Reed imitating his accent. :eek:
     
  9. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    Plum, you and I are going to have to agree to civilly disagree on these few points. I don't believe Trip would be the only one on board who feels that way; he's just the most vocal aobut it. No, Trip isn't a racist. He's a speciest if that's even a proper word. ;) Conquering prejudice towards other species would be humanity's next logical step after conquering racism towards other ethnic groups on Earth--in other words it's a logical progression for 22nd century beings. They don't have much experience interacting on a regular basis with other cultures (outside of the Vulcans with whom they aren't terribly friendly) and one of those strange species "out there" charco broils 7 million Earth citizens? Of course anger is the first reaction. Why do you interpret understandable anger against strange murdering unknown aliens as redneck behavior? Would you interpret it the same way if it were coming from Malcolm or Travis or do you have a predisposition towards thinking that any behavior from a southerner that isn't perfectly charming and level headed is indicative of a redneck? :cool:

    Trip isn't a redneck. He's a male, a male raised with a very basic, honest moral code. Don't sleep with another man's wife. A view of right and wrong that doesn't allow for cultural differences, such as the Vissians' culture (though I still think they treated Charles like a slave those jerks :mad:) is obviously what Trip was raised with. Defend the downtrodden.

    Always protect your baby sister. It's your job. You are her big brother.

    Males with strong moral codes will often want to resort to violence when the women they love are harmed. It's basic male psychology that is most certainly not limited to southern men. Plum, Plum, Plum, my friend. :evil: Why did they pick Trip? Because CT does the torutred angry grief stricken bit so well, of course. He makes the ladies say, "Poor Trip. Come to mama." :evil: :evil:

    The script is setting him up alright--for something great. That is, if Bermaga don't completely screw the @#$%%&!@$ pooch. They could screw the pooch. I'm not saying that it isn't a distinct posssibility but I can't imagine they'd go so far as to have Trip sneak off ship and cut the throats of Xindi children and rape Xindi women. If TPTB concentrate on Malcolm trying to be Trip's psychological savior of sorts they've got a winner of a story on their hands. If they're only interested in showing Trip training like Arnold Schwarzenegger with the new commandos, canine intercourse is imminent. We'll have to wait and see.

    BTW, yes, the Bush administration lied. Sad, but true. Al Qaeda only moved sideways and switched to softer targets and the Iraqis already resent their "liberators." Who could have predicted that? :rolleyes:
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, you are following the plot... I'm following my perceived sub-text. :) Disgreeing is just fine. And hey... I love your take on a male reaction. And you're continuity about Trips past actions. It sorta works.

    Thing is... we don't get these 'feelings' from the dialog of the Expanse. Trip is mad. He want's revenge. Kill the murders of his sister. And if you want to follow Trips developement, he's gotten a lot of leasons about other species, why not have him come to a realization he is being irrational? That at least would have given the Expanse a story instead of a 42 minute setup for season 3.

    Yeah, Bush lied. It's terrible really... after 9/11 the USA have universal good will from all over the world. Even the pathetic Canadian army sent troops into combat in Afganistan! First time our troops were 'at war' since Korea! Then Bush goes on about Iraq... and all that good will is pissed away. Axis of Evil??? When did US foriegn policy become a cartoon? :borg:
     
  11. Dorian Thompson

    Dorian Thompson Admiral Admiral

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    Plum, Plum, my dear man. He will. :D Don't be so quick to poo poo what might be an actual interpersonal arc. You've got to get into the angsty chickie poo mindset. Sure, Trip will eventually realize that he can't sustain this level of rage forever, but we must have more angst first. We must have Malcolm try to help him again and again and see Trip resist it. We must see Trip push close to the edge. Then we get some more fun hurt/comfort scenes with Malcolm and Jon (whose reaction is really mirroring Trip's we'll do what we have to, Trip--he's just less vocal) and be treated to all this slashy subtext that the chicks love. :evil: We get the sappy male bonding as Malcolm is ever more heroic trying to save his friend from himself, perhaps battling Archer (who loves Trip but is far less likely to view his actions through an objective lens) over how close Trip is coming to the edge.

    Then Trip will slowly come to the realization that his anger at a whole race is irrational. Are you appreciating the chickie poo mind set yet, Plum? It might give us an actual story to follow. Don't be quick to dismiss it.

    Miss Thang, WORD on the comments about no one noting that Archer is from THE BAY AREA when he does things perceived as dumb. Actually Trip is being dumbed down far, far less and for this I'm thankful. He hasn't asked for pan fried catfish lately and they show him being an actual engineer much more than they ever did during season one.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    *chuckle*, yeah I am constantly amazed at the fleshing out the characters get thanx to you and Miss Thang and Lady Conqueror. I even love voodoowomans' posts! If the ENT producers read that stuff they would understand the characters! :lol:

    But I know ENT is aimed at young boys (or something like that). Female audiences are not in the demographic. Sorry... but UPN wants you to watch something else.

    I know it's a 'character arc' developing here. But considering the development of all the other characters... all I see is the Trip character suffering whatever the season 3 plots will wedge him into.

    Isn't Trips whole familiy from Florida? Why is there not one line about the rest of Trips familiy? Because the writers can't think messy. It's all too neat and clean... and a contrivance of plot.

    If Trips character developement can lead to this... why didn't we predict Trips behaviour? If we knew the character we should have known his reaction from the teaser on. Think about it. :D
     
  13. MartoksSweetheart

    MartoksSweetheart Commodore Commodore

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    isn't it interesting how many low-ranking bush adoring sheep jump out of nowhere when their sacred, infallible f├╝hrer seems to get under attack here? :lol:

    of course this was a 9/11 show. of course it shows the US adminstration's reaction. but i think everyone who's expecting a 'heee-haw, lets go KILL camelj ... um, xindi' stance in S3 is in for a BIG surprise. trek isn't about that ... and B&B know it. they - or more talented writers - will show us different ways to deal with it than the 1984-ish ones the bushiosi have chosen.

    we'll have our share of space battles ... but the genocide types like johnM are hoping for in trek and RL will not happen.
     
  14. slappy

    slappy Commodore Commodore

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    It just seems to me that, concerning this show, you leap to conclusions based on lack of information in the script and scoff at the information given. It seems biased, I hate to say.

    I hate to make this into a country thing, but do you know what it was like here in the US after 9/11? From New York to California, we were so sad and angry. For the longest time, we wanted foreign blood. I hate to put it that way, but it was true. Alot of Americans wouldn't ALLOW themselves to be reasoned with. Haven't you ever been SO angry, that you rejected a rational point of view even when you KNEW it was rational. That's why Trip's behavior seems so familiar to me.

    When your only semi-intellegece points to a some race in the far reaches of space, you're going to go there. Period. Here in America, God forgive us, some citizens took it upon themselves to exact revenge in the form of finding people of Middle Eastern descent and attacking them. There was no excuse for these actions, but it is a clear example of the dark side of human behavior. The difference is, Archer and Co. have a really damn good starting point.

    I am a bit more disturbed the by the stronger parallels to the events of the past few months (which I happen to disagree with) than simply the period surrounding 9/11. The George W. "WMD propoganda". That's why I will be just as critical if this show can't follow Trek tradition and show us why, when all is said and done, that acting this way isn't the enlightened course.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Hey... that's a terrific post! I read that and learned something. Nicely done! And... I'm just in Canada, we get all your TV and news so I'm familiar with the American reaction. We too had the same thing up here as did the whole world. Of course... it's mass hysteria feed by the media but I'm getting off course...

    Rememeber... this Xindie info comes from Future Guy. That's it. Does anyone question this info? Archer? SF? The Vulcans? Not so as to do anything about it, even with Archers goofy scanner readings (420) which is the only hard proof... such as it is :rolleyes:. Just accept it and go into that most dangerous area FG says to go. Why does Archer let anything this guy says change the entire mission of Enterprise? Why not question FutureGuys info? Cause the scanner reading confirmed FG was truthfull. Riiiiight. Think about it. Can you come up with another explaination? You have 10 seconds... POST IT NOW!!! :D

    Because the script said so. See... I would expect that info to be specious and not a valid reason to send your flagship off to some Bermuda Triangle and let the crew go insane or whatever. :D

    We get a few lines of "hey, it might not be true Jon! You don't know..." well, that question didn't last long in this script.

    I'm biased in that - the script tells me little, or nothing. So I'm leaping to perceptions. Sure, they are perceptions of some sagacity if I may toot my own horn. Worse... whatever I say is based only on The Expanse itself. A show that says nothing about what's going on... only the assumptions of Archer. So here I am questioning what's going on... onscreen.

    ENT is the master at not saying anything and watching the ENT fans explain things. But that doesn't make the show better, only better scripts will.

    I agree that this 9/11 parallel has great story potential. We have ENT in a very Bushy place and Trip right along with Archer/Bush in the plan to destroy the weapons of mass distraction. But given this parallel leaves ENT wide open for sub-text review. Since other culture reviewers referred to Archer as a Bush character when Broken Bow debued all those moons ago this 'new direction' will put a real microscope onto ENT.

    Now... just how 'enlightened' do you think a modern American media corporation will allow ENT to go? Why are there FBI at my door??!?!?! HEY... GET BA... Tom Ridge!?!?! What are you doing... [/i]*Bang!*[/i]...
    < *silence* >
     
  16. USS Gettysburg

    USS Gettysburg Captain Captain

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    When has Hollywood especially Star Trek been pro-Bush administration or pro-conservative? Last time I checked it tended, rather heavily, to lean towards the liberal side. For it to suddenly switch under the same leadership of TNG, DS9, and Voyager seems rather odd to me. So my question is why in the world would Enterprise reverse its course of ideaology?

    Maybe the crew of Ent is just responding as they should... human. Faced with 7 million dead, an impending threat from an unknown adversary, and they are supposed to say, "Welcome to Earth!" I don't think so. Tell me a different way for them to react. Kirk, Picard, Sisko, how would they react? Disturbed but still hoping to grasp peace; calm, reverent and sad but wanting to automatically extend the hand of first contact? Or enraged? Personally I think Kirk would be screaming for blood curdling revenge, Picard would be emotionally distraught and demanding justice.

    What I am saying is I don't think there is any other way for Archer or any other of the crew to react. Trip lost his sister. I couldn't imagine what that would feel like. I would personally lose all control in a fit of rage if I lost my sister to an unknown people for an unknown reason. I think he handled it well. And they never said that they were going to abandon diplomatic alternatives. Archer said in response to Trip's anger is close to "We'll see." They are simply on a desperate mission to try and save the planet from a threat they have never faced before. I would go with all guns loaded just in case, wouldn't you?

    Oh and remember the time period that the Xindi believe that the Federation is supposed to destroy their species... 400 years. What happened to the benevolent Federation? Why would they wipe out an entire civilization? The Xindi must have had at least reasonable proof to risk attacking an unknown alien species. But that is a different topic.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ^^^ that's not what Archer said. I did quote his line you know.

    And just thinking... why would you attack someone who might attack/destroy you so far into the future? Wouldn't it be prudent to wait a while? See what happens?

    See... why the Xindies did this, according to FG, doesn't make sense. Wouldn't you think FG was full of beans claiming someone attacked Earth because of something that might happen?

    Am I the only one who thinks FG is the only logical suspect here? He has the technology ... we've no idea at all about the Xindies tech. Why blame them? FG said so? Riiiight. :D
     
  18. slappy

    slappy Commodore Commodore

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    Well, I certainly won't try to deny that the script took a liberty or two with some story elements. It was rushed. I'm guessing the official mission is that the Enteprise is going into the Expanse to "investigate" not rip off Xindi heads.
     
  19. USS Gettysburg

    USS Gettysburg Captain Captain

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    But he said something to that effect. I don't think you are giving him enough credit. He has always been hesitant to use deadly force except when his crew is in danger. He has always, if not with a little less eloquence, tried to hold up the olive branch. Archer had so much hesitation in blowing up that Borg ship he nearly lost his ship. I almost saw a little grief when he destroy the Klingon ship. He did try to disable it the first time. He was hesitant to indulge Trip's anger. His response was nonconfrontational and avoiding Trip's type of rage.
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ^^^? Just read my post above please. :)
    AH! No, no, no... investigate? No one ever said that. The ACTUAL mission is never spoken of. No one ever says to 'do this'. It's all left unsaid. That's why I leap to perceptions. ENt is full of omissions that cause viewers to wonder what the frell is going on!

    Archer just goes to the area FG says to go. Archer refits... gets lots of photon torpedoes... gets Military soldiers onboard... and goes. Investigate? Sure, that would make sense. Determine if FG is telling the truth then report to Earth and they determine a course of action. But if you were doing that you wouldn't need the soldiers. :)
     
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