Generation & Nexus

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by JesterFace, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. solariabsg25

    solariabsg25 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the whole reason Soran didn't just fly into the Nexus with a ship is that may have been more of a crap-shoot, with no guarantee that the ship would not have been destroyed before the Nexus took the occupants. Kirk may even have been blown out into space through the hole in the Enterprise-B before taken into the Nexus rather than just plucked out of the ship.

    My take on it was when Soran said it was the only way, he meant it was the only way that didn't risk his being killed before the Nexus took him - he did after all build a high platform in order to get grabbed, and not just sit on the surface to wait, and it was pure luck that Picard was close enough to get pulled in too.

    That being said, I also agree that the Nexus itself was a poorly thought-through plot device.
     
  2. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Aye, I think the worst part is the inconsistency of it. Soran says he needs to get into the Nexus by blowing holes in the galaxy because "Believe me, this IS the only way", but we're still expected to accept the falacy that Guinan actually managed to get there (during the Enterprise-B rescue, or maybe some later more successful attempt?) for long enough for her to leave an echo of herself behind. So if the Ent-B hadn't beamed them out then all the guys on those ships at the start of the movie would've made the transition and been fine? :confused: Maybe the guys on the other ship did in fact manage to ascend into the Nexus before their vessel went bye-bye. :devil:

    And then we're shown that Kirk managed to get there through no means other than falling out of a big hole in the side of the 1701-B.

    Soran wanting to find a 'safe' way to get there is indeed a plausible fanon explaination, and nobody in the 24th century (including Soran) knew Kirk had managed to survive simply falling into the Nexus anyway, but realistically his destroying suns quite patently isn't the "only" way for him to get into the Nexus! :D
     
  3. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    The Nexus is The Nothing.

    Maybe Guinan's echo is in there because she's a better listener than Soran.
     
  4. Tom

    Tom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Im sure Soran had an echo there two, but to the Soran that is outside the Nexus it did not matter, he wanted to get back in desperately! So when he got back in he probably merged with his echo self.
     
  5. LOKAI of CHERON

    LOKAI of CHERON Commodore Commodore

    Hmm... what if a Nexus Echo itself managed to get out? Would they leave an Echo Echo? :lol:
     
  6. davidant32

    davidant32 Commodore Commodore

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    Well the whole "echo" left behind thing is this: once you're in the Nexus, you're in it forever. The Nexus exists outside of time, so everyone that has ever entered it or ever will enter it from our perspective of time will exist in it and have existed it in for the entirety of "Nexus time," which isn't anything....

    :confused:

    I think I hurt my brain...? The better question is if Wesley had been piloting the saucer section instead of Deanna, would they still have crashed?
     
  7. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    If Wesley had piloted the saucer, everyone would have been trapped with the Traveler just looking at them and smiling incessantly.
     
  8. solariabsg25

    solariabsg25 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Now that's an interesting point - could the Enterprise-B "rescue" actually have snatched people back from being able to spend forever in their absolute paradise, where all thier dreams come true and they never grow old.
     
  9. NeroShrimp

    NeroShrimp Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Perhaps we just didn't see him. However, I just bought an e-book that came out last year by James Swallow called "The Stuff of Dreams" and it follows Picard's return to the Nexus and Soran's echo is there. Granted I know this is not canon, but it's something worth checking out. I'm reading it now.
     
  10. LMFAOschwarz

    LMFAOschwarz Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Everything related to the nexus is annoying. Annoying because it raises questions, none get answered, and still more questions pile up like scrap lumber at a construction site.

    Every other weird phenomenon the Enterprise D encountered made total sense by comparison. One had 'length' and 'width', but no 'height'. At least that concept had something your imagination could hold on to. Another, a vortex where time ran backwards. Simple enough to understand that idea, too. And so it goes...

    The nexus? A ribbon of destructive energy which (based on the description) flies around in a big circle every 39 years. Every starship that encountered it has been destroyed. So, is the area of the nexus' travel a quarantined area? No one really appears to know about it, and Data spoke of it as if it were a sighting of some rarely-seen bird (bear in mind I haven't seen this movie in quite some time). It just seems that it would be studied intensely, if only from a safe distance.

    How does Guinan's "echo" know she's (it's?) only an echo? Would that make it (her) a separate being altogether? (I was grateful she (it) showed up, though, otherwise I think Picard would still be there, staring at that Christmas ornament!)

    Much discussed above is the "you can't get into the nexus with a ship" issue, but how would anyone know that? What would even prompt them to try? "Hmm, I wonder if I can go inside that thing?". If they failed, they'd die trying, so there would be no chance for anyone to spread the word "Whatever you do, don't try it with a ship!". And if they succeeded, no one would know that, either. Unless of course, they returned (however that works) and told the tale, in which case Data would have mentioned it in his description, you'd think.

    See what I mean about no, simple, fundamental grasp of the thing? In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, V'ger was immense and awesomely powerful, yet it was simple to understand the basics: it 'digitized' everything it encountered in a quest for knowledge. Where's the conceptual 'hook' for the nexus?

    ?

    ?

    I will never think about the nexus again. There are no answers.
     
  11. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Its also interesting to note that Soran's first reaction upon realizing where he is was to shout "Let my go BACK!" Back to where, we may ask? Back to the ship? Or back to the Nexus itself, where he (and the rest of the ship's passengers judging by Guinan's echo being left behind) was wrenched from by the Enterprise-B's transporter before fully transitioning to the other realm? :confused:

    More puzzling still is why the S.S. Lukul sent the distress message that got picked up by the 1701-B in the first place, when judging by the passengers they certainly weren't unhappy about being stuck in the Nexus ribbon (and were in fact more annoyed by being "rescued" from it).
     
  12. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    And given that the Nexus was slower than light it wouldn't have a very large territory. ANd it was fairly close to Earth, given that the Ent B was close to it on it's shakedown cruise. So why have we never heard of it before?
     
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Because they sent the distress call BEFORE they started getting pulled into the nexus.
     
  14. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True, the (apparently) close proximity to Earth is yet another clanger the script makes. Its for reasons like all of the above that the movie's story is such a bloody mess. Everything we're told and see about the Nexus throughout the movie is inconsistent with everything else we're told and see about it. ;) The Nexus is presented to us with the 'hard science' of its trajectory and its history, but its really nothing more than a doorway to a nonsense magical nether-realm. It's a plot coupon to allow Kirk and Picard to team up, but the ultimate result is very unsatisfying because we really just can't suspend out disbelief in the concept.

    I suppose this is true. Perhaps the ships got caught in the ribbon, and only subsequently started discovering themselves being taken into this other fantasy reality (my assumption was based on the idea, not actually stated in the movie I agree, that they were looking to enter the Nexus deliberately).
     
  15. davidant32

    davidant32 Commodore Commodore

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    Interesting... so if all of "Nexus time" is like one perpetual moment, then does that mean that every occupant of the Nexus in its entire history (by our perception of time) has been pre-determined? So everything Soran does or does not do to alter the Nexus' path through space is really just him trapped fulfilling a pre-determined destiny?
     
  16. ClayinCA

    ClayinCA Commodore Commodore

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    Which technically means that even if Kirk died on Veridian III, he's also still alive, inside the Nexus. (David R. George III's excellent Crucible Kirk novel makes use of this idea...sort of.)
     
  17. GalaxyX

    GalaxyX Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think the most hilarious thing is that the nexus was supposed to be a plot device specifically created to avoid a movie that has time travel in it.

    Then they go and make a movie about time travel in the very next outing. :guffaw:

    Then JJ Abrams' first Trek outing is a movie about time travel, and the massive success of that film proves time travel IS NOT THE PROBLEM, A LAME STORY IS THE PROBLEM! :klingon:
     
  18. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ I think the exact idea for GENS was something like "a story about time travel which doesn't use any of the usual time travel tropes". Which is a noble aim, to try and think 'outside the box', but the execution of such a concept is harder to do.

    In many ways the Nexus is too abstract. It leaves us with more questions than answers, but because it's ultimately just a wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey thing, we're all left scratching our heads. If we as Trek fans can't get a handle on it, goodness knows what Joe Sixpack in the audience must've thought... :confused:
     
  19. lewisniven

    lewisniven Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    The 'how did they get out' is the kicker for me.

    Also, when Picard goes back to before the planet was destroyed, how did he do that exactly? Why didn't he go back to the Enterprise B and warn them? Why didn't he go back to when Soran was sitting on the loo and just shoot him?

    In the nexus you can go 'anywhere, any time', and that is simply too broad, it is at that moment the story falls apart.

    Still a good movie though, 1701-D looks amazing.
     
  20. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Captain Captain

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    Interior; Enterprise; Outside Ten Forward

    Picard, back from the Nexus, walks into Ten Forward and up to Soran.

    Soran turns to face Picard.

    Picard shoots him in the face with a phaser rifle.

    Cut to: Credits