Spoilers General Prodigy plot-arc speculation thread...

[Deks]

Well it needs implementing, I forgot that it already exists because of the time war. There would need to be an inquiry at the very least. What does the Temporal Prime Directive say about future events that are known about? Does the Temporal Prime Directive say that future events should be left to unfold even though they are yet to happen? Or can history be rewritten? Is the fate of Solum written as indelibly as that of Romulus and Remus?

The TPD basically prevents changing the timeline even if you may know what those events are.
Remember Timeless?
Chakotay and Kim were charged with treason for conspiring to break the TDP... which in the end they did and VOY was saved as a result and history was changed - Braxton called this 'The Temporal Incursion in the Takara sector'... something he had to repair no less - he also had to repair whatever damage happened from when 'The Future's end' episodes took place - he described that as a problem.

The Department of Temporal Investigations also has a view of time travel... according to DS9, they 'hate' predestination paradoxes... but the way they usually determine if that's the case is that crews INTENTIONALLY use time travel to go to the past and affect change.


Here's the thing, we know very little about the temporal anomaly that damaged the Protostar and deposited it sometime in the 25th century near Solum... but,the way the Diviner described it: 'They said it was an accident'.

Still, that doesn't preclude the possibility of all of this being a predestination paradox and the civil war something that happens (or has to happen) either way

 

[Timofnine]

The TPD basically prevents changing the timeline even if you may know what those events are.
Remember Timeless?
Chakotay and Kim were charged with treason for conspiring to break the TDP... which in the end they did and VOY was saved as a result and history was changed - Braxton called this 'The Temporal Incursion in the Takara sector'... something he had to repair no less - he also had to repair whatever damage happened from when 'The Future's end' episodes took place - he described that as a problem.

The Department of Temporal Investigations also has a view of time travel... according to DS9, they 'hate' predestination paradoxes... but the way they usually determine if that's the case is that crews INTENTIONALLY use time travel to go to the past and affect change.


Here's the thing, we know very little about the temporal anomaly that damaged the Protostar and deposited it sometime in the 25th century near Solum... but,the way the Diviner described it: 'They said it was an accident'.

Still, that doesn't preclude the possibility of all of this being a predestination paradox and the civil war something that happens (or has to happen) either way

Starfleet and other species now know of the existence of Solum and the Vau N’akat in the late 24th century. Species also have advanced transwarp and slipstream capabilities as well as prototypes such as the Protostar which enables them to travel to the Delta Quadrant. What is to stop the Ferengi or another species now contacting Solum? Other species may be interested in their advanced AI technologies. Would other species adhere to the Temporal Prime Directives, or would they see an opportunity to interfere in the development of Solum? Any such inter species interaction would not be a temporal incursion therefore not under the jurisdiction of Temporal Investigations or covered by the Temporal Prime Directive. Any such interference could lead to a civil war should this be the direction that the Vau N’akat are manipulated in to by another party with a vested interest and agenda. Knowing about the Vau N’akat, would Starfleet send out undercover observers to Solum to make sure that the planet *is* ready for First Contact, a mission to try to avert a future civil war? Would Section 31 attempt to stop the Diviner travelling back in time in a temporal incursion against Starfleet?

This is a *major* temporal incident, it can not just be brushed under the carpet.

 

[Deks]

Starfleet and other species now know of the existence of Solum and the Vau N’akat in the late 24th century. Species also have advanced transwarp and slipstream capabilities as well as prototypes such as the Protostar which enables them to travel to the Delta Quadrant. What is to stop the Ferengi or another species now contacting Solum? Other species may be interested in their advanced AI technologies. Would other species adhere to the Temporal Prime Directives, or would they see an opportunity to interfere in the development of Solum? Any such interference could lead to a civil war should this be the direction that the Vau N’akat are manipulated in to by another party with a vested interest and agenda. Knowing about the Vau N’akat, would Starfleet send out undercover observers to Solum to make sure that the planet *is* ready for First Contact, a mission to try to avert a future civil war? Would Section 31 attempt to stop the Diviner travelling back in time in a temporal incursion against Starfleet?

This is a *major* temporal incident, it can not just be brushed under the carpet.

Only SF thus far has learned of the existence of Vau'N'A'Kat.
The Kazon dealt with the Diviner, but there's 0 indication he told them anything about the name of his species or Solum.
The Ferengi who raised Dal only spoke with the Diviner (she never knew of his species name or Solum).

The allies that Gwyn called never knew they were speaking with Vau'N'A'Kat, nor do they know of Solum.
All she did was say that SF lost control of their ships.

No one (besides SF - aka Janeway) knows of Solum... and no one knows where it is.
Only Janeway (and the kids) saw Chakotay's footage saying: 'we're lost somewhere in the Delta Quadrant. The Protostar sustained heavy damage after passing through a temporal anomaly.'

The Romulans also never learned of this either. All they knew was that the Protostar was in the NZ and wanted it for its technology... they may (or may not have) known of the existence of the weapon (or what kind of weapon it was).

Again, this could still be a predestination paradox.

 

[Timofnine]

Only SF thus far has learned of the existence of Vau'N'A'Kat.
The Kazon dealt with the Diviner, but there's 0 indication he told them anything about the name of his species or Solum.
The Ferengi who raised Dal only spoke with the Diviner (she never knew of his species name or Solum).

The allies that Gwyn called never knew they were speaking with Vau'N'A'Kat, nor do they know of Solum.
All she did was say that SF lost control of their ships.

No one (besides SF - aka Janeway) knows of Solum... and no one knows where it is.
Only Janeway (and the kids) saw Chakotay's footage saying: 'we're lost somewhere in the Delta Quadrant. The Protostar sustained heavy damage after passing through a temporal anomaly.'

The Romulans also never learned of this either. All they knew was that the Protostar was in the NZ and wanted it for its technology... they may (or may not have) known of the existence of the weapon (or what kind of weapon it was).

Again, this could still be a predestination paradox.

The whole quadrant knows about the weapon now and will have questions to ask.

Unless Admiral Janeway says “Computer, end program!”

 

[Deks]

The whole quadrant knows about the weapon now and will have questions to ask.

Unless Admiral Janeway says “Computer, end program!”

The whole quadrant knows NOTHING.
The allies who warped in only know SF lost control of their ships... they don't know it was the weapon (what kind of a weapon it is, where it came from or who made it).
The Romulans would have only now confirmed the existence of a weapon onboard the Protostar, but beyond that, they don't know it was the Vau'N'A'Kat Living Construct, or that it originated from Solum and the future... also, its unlikely anyone outside the Tal'Shiar would know of this limited info (since the Tal'Shiar were the ones who dealt with it), and they are REALLY good at keeping secrets - they wouldn't want to tip someone else and lose a potential advantage.

Like I said, no one knows anything (conlcusively or otherwise).
Only SF (via Janeway) would now know of the full picture. The Romulans don't even know half the story.

So, no one really has a clue about the Vau'N'A'Kat, Solum or the fact the Living Construct originated from the future.

 

[Timofnine]

The whole quadrant knows NOTHING.
The allies who warped in only know SF lost control of their ships... they don't know it was the weapon (what kind of a weapon it is, where it came from or who made it).
The Romulans would have only now confirmed the existence of a weapon onboard the Protostar, but beyond that, they don't know it was the Vau'N'A'Kat Living Construct, or that it originated from Solum and the future... also, its unlikely anyone outside the Tal'Shiar would know of this (since the Tal'Shiar were the ones who dealt with it), and they are REALLY good at keeping secrets - they wouldn't want to tip someone else and lose a potential advantage.

Like I said, no one knows anything (conlcusively or otherwise).
Only SF (via Janeway) would now know of the full picture. The Romulans don't even know half the story.

So, no one really has a clue about the Vau'N'A'Kat, Solum or the fact the Living Construct originated from the future.

Well let’s see how the next episode pans out then.

The Ferengi, Vulcan, Orion and Klingon ships were fired upon by Starfleet ships. This is an act of war unless Starfleet can explain to their intergalactic colleagues what the hell is going on!

“Computer!!!! END PROGRAM!!!!”

 

[Deks]

Well let’s see how the next episode pans out then.

The Ferengi, Vulcan, Orion and Klingon ships were fired upon by Starfleet ships. This is an act of war unless Starfleet can explain to their intergalactic colleagues what the hell is going on!

“Computer!!!! END PROGRAM!!!!”

Lol.
But no.
Knowing Trek, they probably won't deal with the aftermath of this right away... or at all. 'They lost control of their ships' is a pretty good explanation as any... so I don't think there will be too much prodding since it was SF that took the brunt of the attack and the others were all civilian ships.

SF could just as easily release an official story saying that a piece of unknown malicious code ended up on the Protostar, which spread to other ships by accident which then made them lose control. And if the Protostar ends up destroyed (or not) in this week's episode, SF could easily say the code was either purged from the ship successfully, or it was destroyed when the Protostar exploded.

Case closed.

When it comes to official series of events, SF might omit sensitive data (like the name of Vau'N'A'Kat species, Solum and the fact it was the Living Construct which was planted in the future), but would otherwise provide a fairly accurate picture of what happened.

 

[Timofnine]

Lol.
But no.
Knowing Trek, they probably won't deal with the aftermath of this right away... or at all. 'They lost control of their ships' is a pretty good explanation as any... so I don't think there will be too much prodding since it was SF that took the brunt of the attack and the others were all civilian ships.

SF could just as easily release an official story saying that a piece of unknown malicious code ended up on the Protostar, which spread to other ships by accident which then made them lose control. And if the Protostar ends up destroyed (or not) in this week's episode, SF could easily say the code was either purged from the ship successfully, or it was destroyed when the Protostar exploded.

Case closed.

When it comes to official series of events, SF might omit sensitive data (like the name of Vau'N'A'Kat species, Solum and the fact it was the Living Construct which was planted in the future), but would otherwise provide a fairly accurate picture of what happened.

Sounds like a Section 31 cover up to me if they don’t want to keep this confrontation on the holodeck. The other ships involved did not look civilian to me. Even if they were civilian ships that makes them none the less important to their respective species of origin. The Ferengi at the very least would possibly even be demanding compensation.

 

[fireproof78]

Sounds like a Section 31 cover up to me if they don’t want to keep this confrontation on the holodeck. The other ships involved did not look civilian to me. Even if they were civilian ships that makes them none the less important to their respective species of origin. The Ferengi at the very least would possibly even be demanding compensation.

And they will be compensated as appropriate. That doesn't mean Starfleet has to explain everything. This isn't Archer.

 

[Timofnine]

And they will be compensated as appropriate. That doesn't mean Starfleet has to explain everything. This isn't Archer.

If Starfleet want to maintain amicable relations with the very Federation that they are sworn to upheld the principles of and protect, then the Federation Council would demand a degree of transparency, as would Federation allies. Starfleet are accountable to the Federation Council, the Council is accountable to all the Federation members that it represents as well as to all of the species that the Federation has diplomatic relations with, including those species involved in this incident. I am sure that the Federation President and other council members would not want to start viewing Starfleet as a rogue militia.

 

[fireproof78]

If Starfleet want to maintain amicable relations with the very Federation that they are sworn to upheld the principles of and protect, then the Federation Council would demand a degree of transparency, as would Federation alleys. Starfleet are accountable to the Federation Council, the Council is accountable to all the Federation members that it represents as well as to all of the species that the Federation has diplomatic relations with, including those species involved in this incident. I am sure that the Federation President and other council members would not want to start viewing Starfleet as a rogue militia.

They are under no obligation to disclose all the details. Only that it was a rogue program, it was resolved, and other elements are classified. State secrets don't just get thrown out just because. Diplomacy is a back and forth based upon need to know.

 

[Timofnine]

They are under no obligation to disclose all the details. Only that it was a rogue program, it was resolved, and other elements are classified. State secrets don't just get thrown out just because. Diplomacy is a back and forth based upon need to know.

I shall adjourn my judgment until having watched Supernova, Part 2. We do not know all of the facts yet. I also do not wish to pass further comment until I know if this is all on a holodeck or not.

 

[StewMc]

I shall adjourn my judgment until having watched Supernova, Part 2. We do not know all of the facts yet. I also do not wish to pass further comment until I know if this is all on a holodeck or not.

Why would it be on the holodeck? There’s nothing to support that. Might as well say that for every Trek series. PIC? Might be the holodeck. SNW? Holodeck.

Prodigy writers: “Sorry folks, all that world building and character development we’ve been doing the last 19 episodes, it was all a simulation.”

 

[Timofnine]

Why would it be on the holodeck? There’s nothing to support that. Might as well say that for every Trek series. PIC? Might be the holodeck. SNW? Holodeck.

The previous episode ‘Ghost in the Machine’ was set on a holodeck, evil hologram Janeway trapped them in there. Hologram Janeway could still have them all trapped on the holodeck to show the crew the true dangers of the Living Construct or to keep them occupied whilst the Diviner gets on with his revenge mission. I mentioned this a while ago but posts get buried.

**EDIT**
Original Post

 

[Wouter]

S2 however (at least I think) should feature VA Janeway because of Chakotay, etc.
Also, with Mulgrew being part of the series from the start, do we have any indication that she won't be technically part of the series anymore?

Furthermore... if the Protostar is destroyed (and holo-Janeway too), how would she make a come back from the future when Chakotay sent the Protostar with holo Janeway into the past?

The possible solution to this would be the kids end up in the future and prevent the Protostar from being weaponized in the first place. Events unfold for the most part as they do, but the crew 'insulate' the Protostar from being hacked by the Construct (even if its still placed onto the ship), so opening hails to SF ships would not cause them to destroy themselves.

Even if the present-day Protostar gets supernova'd, Mulgrew would still be part of the series, with VA Janeway still around (we may get a scene of VA Janeway being debriefed by Jellico and/or various admirals/officials regarding what happened, for example) and a version of holo-Janeway likely present on a Protostar between the time that it arrived on Solum and was sent on its way again. In that case, they would likely attempt to stop the construct from even getting placed and/or armed.

If the Protostar is destroyed, the Dauntless (for which CGI 'sets' have been created) would probably temporarily takes its place as the "hero ship", with VA Janeway leading the mission to retrieve Chakotay (and the teens at some point getting away, somehow, on the Protostar again, possibly with tacit approval of Janeway and Chakotay).

I think John Noble may be back as well, voicing a younger version of himself and possibly also the older version either in narrated flashback or in the future with Chakotay.

As for nobody knowing what the Vau N'akat are: Starfleet will know as soon as they finish debriefing Janeway. The head of Starfleet Intelligence will be a Romulan agent, in a not too distant future, and is probably rising in the ranks already. Which means the Romulans will be aware too (and they will be interested after the events at Noble Isle, where they met several "interesting" individuals), through her or through other means of the Tal'Shiar. Starfleet and the Federation generally aren't great at keeping secrets, once those are not restricted to a very limited number of people (like Ross and Sisko).

The Klingons saw and heard Gwyn, and as they no doubt have a species database too, they will realise she is from an unknown species (and probably that those apparently are extremely good at learning languages). Same goes for the Ferengi.

And I agree with Timofnine that explanations will be demanded, now that at least the Klingons lost a vessel or vessels. Starfleet will have to tell them something, and if they lie they risk the Romulans knowing well before their allies, who came to aid them. Not a very Starfleet thing to do.

Section 31 will know, too. If Starfleet is not inclined to do anything about the threat, they will probably seek a way to do so in their stead. Who knows what they would do?

But - except for Ascensia - isn’t it true that none of them know where Solum is? Seems like you need a “search for Solum” theme?

The Diviner would know so too, and Gwyn did receive a final telepathic communication from him when he died. Vau N'akat seem to be capable of wireless information transfer, Cylon style (but short range, more bluetooth than interstellar), not only with their "heirlooms" but also with each other. So she may know.

Beyond that, the navigation computers of the Rev-12 and its sistership operated by Ascencia (which I'm guessing she may be heading too) would probably also have the location of Solum. Finding the Rev-12 would be difficult but not impossible, and Ascencia may seek out Starfleet installations herself, in an attempt to do more damage, once she realises her plan has not worked as well as she had hoped. This may in turn offer a chance to Starfleet to capture her and/or her vessel.

Starfleet is also likely to discover Solum on its own, on condition that the scheduled deep-space exploration (probably of the Delta quadrant, though we don't know that for sure yet) would be maintained.

 

[Timofnine]

I had totally forgotten about Commodore Oh @Wouter . She may still be a Captain during the time of Prodigy though I think that she could be overseeing the Zhat Vash initiation ceremony soon, the ‘admonition’. Is it possible that she could have been on one of the ships involved with Starfleets confrontation with the Living Construct? If so, it is also possible that she was involved in backwards engineering the Living Construct weapon in order to infect the synths which attacked Utopia Planetia on Mars? This may be where she obtained the source code from? The Romulans may also want to destroy the Vau N’akat in the future because of their hatred of AI and synthetic life.

 

[Wouter]

I think the Tal Shiar is capable of corrupting Starfleet AI with its own resources, and it is unlikely they would even be able to glean useful info from the Construct, which defends itself well and does not exactly broadcasts its blueprints and working principles.

If the Zhat Vash would be aware of the Drednoks, they may add the Vau N'akat to the target list. But I doubt Prodigy will reference Picard to such an extent, and Oh will likely not be on the show.

 

[Timofnine]

Actually, rewatch this… the synths eyes go a bit like hologram Janeway’s when it is taken over:

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If you watch this clip until the end, the planetary defences even turn against Utopia Planetia in the same way that weapons systems attacked the station in ‘Ayslum’ as a result of the Living Construct. This is also how the Starfleet ships attack each other in ‘Supernova, Part 1’.

Too much of a coincidence.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the Tal Shiar is capable of corrupting Starfleet AI with its own resources, and it is unlikely they would even be able to glean useful info from the Construct, which defends itself well and does not exactly broadcasts its blueprints and working principles.

If the Zhat Vash would be aware of the Drednoks, they may add the Vau N'akat to the target list. But I doubt Prodigy will reference Picard to such an extent, and Oh will likely not be on the show.

Sure, but if they witness it with such efficiency as demonstrated in the last episode then why not replicate it?

 

[Wouter]

Sure, but if they witness it with such efficiency as demonstrated in the last episode then why not replicate it?

They would if they can, but to replicate it they must first know how it works and even then they might not be able to copy it (since it could need exotic materials and/or exotic programming that they don't have/don't know how to create). It's a weapon from 50 or so years in the future, probably created by a species that may already be ahead in AI technology compared to the Romulans and Federation as they are now.

I don't think the Diviner and Ascencia should be dismissed entirely when they use words as "primitive", or when she claims that the Federation stood more to gain than the Vau N'akat. There will probably be a core of truth in that (though both likely overclaim), in some ways the Vau N'akat may be ahead of the Alpha/beta quadrant powers.