Garak in the episode "In the Pale Moonlight" (I know there's probably other threads)

[Mr. Friscus]

Once you know Garak, you know you can't trust a word he says. Yet, the first few times I watched this amazing episode, I realized I was believing what he said.

For example. When Sisco initially pressed Garak to become involved in the plot to bring the Romulans into the war, Garak revealed that he would have to use all of his favors he's ever had. Was that true? Now that I look at it in a different light, probably not. He was manipulating Sisco.

Next, when Sisco checked in a Garak a few days later about getting things moving in the tailor shop, Garak said all of the people he contacted were now dead. Were they? Probably not. He was likely again manipulating Sisco.

You can get very different versions of this episode based on if you believe what Garak is saying or not. Did he "have hopes that Tolar was up for the job" of creating a data rod that would pass scrutiny? Likely not... as Sisco said, he just wanted to get the Vulcan Senator to the station so he could put a bomb on his shuttle.. which is sickly funny knowing Garak and reminding myself this is fiction.

What else can we not trust Garak about in the episode?

 

[Tosk]

It's all true.




Especially the lies.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

It's all true.




Especially the lies.

Disagree. They're all lies. Even the truth

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

? Likely not... as Sisco said, he just wanted to get the Vulcan Senator to the station so he could put a bomb on his shuttle..

Romulan, not Vulcan.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

It's all true.




Especially the lies.

Oh come on, don't give me that cliche line. Get some detail

 

[kkt]

Disagree. They're all lies. Even the truth

tomato, tomahto.

 

[Lynx]

It's all true.




Especially the lies.

Exactly!

That's our Garak!
The most complex and interesting character in all of Star Trek.
That's why I like him!

As for In The pale Moonlight, I think that Sisko was rude and ungrateful to Garak when he hit him after finding out what had happened with Vreenak and the shuttle.

Sisko turned to Garak to make him help a situation in which the Romulans should side up with the Federation and the Klingons against the Dominion and Garak did just that. So why complain?

As for Sisko, he has got a lot of criticizm for his action in this episode. But I actually agree with him and his actions in this case. What he did wasn't nice but necessary.

If I was a leader or some important person in a country which was threatened by a genocidial power, i would do something similar if necessary.

 

[kkt]

Exactly!

That's our Garak!
The most complex and interesting character in all of Star Trek.
That's why I like him!

As for In The pale Moonlight, I think that Sisko was rude and ungrateful to Garak when he hit him after finding out what had happened with Vreenak and the shuttle.

Sisko turned to Garak to make him help a situation in which the Romulans should side up with the Federation and the Klingons against the Dominion and Garak did just that. So why complain?

As for Sisko, he has got a lot of criticizm for his action in this episode. But I actually agree with him and his actions in this case. What he did wasn't nice but necessary.

If I was a leader or some important person in a country which was threatened by a genocidial power, i would do something similar if necessary.

Sisko is human and has emotions, and one thing he feels very strongly (like most of Starfleet) is that they should be doing the Right Things, and assassinating Senators is very much the Wrong Thing. You wouldn't really expect Sisko to react calmly after finding out that he'd be tricked into abetting assassination? He did learn to live with it after Garak layed it out for him... and what could he do? If he pressed charges he'd expose the whole thing and he certainly didn't want that. Killing Garak would be even worse than killing Vereenak, because it would be just Sisko and it would serve no overriding Federation interest.

 

[Orac]

Garak is despicable and deserved to get punched in the face by Sisko.
Sisko is despicable for hiring him and got his comeuppance in the finale.

 

[Tosk]

Sisko is despicable for hiring him and got his comeuppance in the finale.

What I wouldn't give for the kind of comeuppance.

 

[FPAlpha]

Exactly!

That's our Garak!
The most complex and interesting character in all of Star Trek.
That's why I like him!

As for In The pale Moonlight, I think that Sisko was rude and ungrateful to Garak when he hit him after finding out what had happened with Vreenak and the shuttle.

Sisko turned to Garak to make him help a situation in which the Romulans should side up with the Federation and the Klingons against the Dominion and Garak did just that. So why complain?

As for Sisko, he has got a lot of criticizm for his action in this episode. But I actually agree with him and his actions in this case. What he did wasn't nice but necessary.

If I was a leader or some important person in a country which was threatened by a genocidial power, i would do something similar if necessary.

By assaulting Garak Sisko was trying to absolve himself of his own crimes. He was trying to be a proper Starfleet officer again by punishing a criminal for his crimes.

Sisko is a very intelligent man so getting in bed with Garak so to speak he knew lines would be crossed even if he didn't know the specifics yet he still felt shame when Garak did what he does best.

So in order to save the Alpha Quadrant Sisko had to betray everything he believed in and stood for and he took out his frustration and anger about the war and what it forced him to do on poor Garak.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Sisko is despicable for hiring him and got his comeuppance in the finale.

How?

He was rescued from a fiery death and allowed to live some non-corporeal life until some unknown time when he will become corporeal again. There is no indication that there was any pain. There is no indication a punishment was meted out on him for the death of Vreenak. The only suffering he experienced was a product of his conscience, as Garak said, as the state clearly didn't care.

 

[Orac]

How?

He was rescued from a fiery death and allowed to live some non-corporeal life until some unknown time when he will become corporeal again. There is no indication that there was any pain. There is no indication a punishment was meted out on him for the death of Vreenak. The only suffering he experienced was a product of his conscience, as Garak said, as the state clearly didn't care.

Spending eternity in a bright white room with no windows seems mildly unpleasant to me.
If memory serves even the Prophets called it a penance for his warmongering.

 

[Lynx]

By assaulting Garak Sisko was trying to absolve himself of his own crimes. He was trying to be a proper Starfleet officer again by punishing a criminal for his crimes.

Sisko is a very intelligent man so getting in bed with Garak so to speak he knew lines would be crossed even if he didn't know the specifics yet he still felt shame when Garak did what he does best.

So in order to save the Alpha Quadrant Sisko had to betray everything he believed in and stood for and he took out his frustration and anger about the war and what it forced him to do on poor Garak.

Sisko is human and has emotions, and one thing he feels very strongly (like most of Starfleet) is that they should be doing the Right Things, and assassinating Senators is very much the Wrong Thing. You wouldn't really expect Sisko to react calmly after finding out that he'd be tricked into abetting assassination? He did learn to live with it after Garak layed it out for him... and what could he do? If he pressed charges he'd expose the whole thing and he certainly didn't want that. Killing Garak would be even worse than killing Vereenak, because it would be just Sisko and it would serve no overriding Federation interest.

Yes, but Sisko should have known that from the start that if he involved Garak in his scemes there would be some risks.

Although I understand Sisko and how he felt about it, it was wrong of him to abuse Garak for something he wanted to be done, even if it didn't happen the way he thought it would happen.

Despite that, I support Sisko in his actions. After all, they were fighting a ruthless opponent who would have comitted genocide if they had managed to defeat the federation and the Klingons.

Garak is despicable and deserved to get punched in the face by Sisko.
Sisko is despicable for hiring him and got his comeuppance in the finale.

None of them were guilty of anything except trying to save their worlds from being enslaved.

As for Sisko, he went to live among the wormhole aliens (Prophets) for a while and most likely returned to Deep Space Nine after that.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

The Dominion abducted and imprisoned innocent people who just minded their own business for no reason at all (being "enemy of the Dominion" seems to include anyone and is no reason at all).

They had to be defeated by any means necessary.

 

[at Quark's]

Garak is despicable and deserved to get punched in the face by Sisko.
Sisko is despicable for hiring him and got his comeuppance in the finale.

So, suppose Sisko had chosen to keep his moral integrity intact. Without the Romulans on their side, the Federation can't hold its own in the fight against the Dominion War, and they have to surrender. Weyoun implements his plan getting all of earth's population exterminated.

Was it worth it?

After all, the contention of Star Trek (TOS+TNG) up till DS9 was was there was always a way to escape from an impossible situation. Usually by being particularly clever, by outreasoning or outmaneuvering your enemy, or by exploiting an unsuspected weak spot. But always 'clean' ways. DS9 (imho) asks the question what you do when there isn't such a clean way out and the only option to survive is to play it dirty.

 

[Toril Toran]

I think that deep down (perhaps unconsciously) Sisko knew Garek would do whatever was necessary to achieve the goal.
However, consciously, Sisko believed that most of the Human race was beyond this sort of behaviour; that his plan of using the hologram to bring the Romulans into the war alone would be enough.

Garek, on the other hand, was not convinced this plan would work, and created an additional plan in case the original didn’t work.

I think Sisko did not think beyond his original plan. Perhaps in his mental state he couldn’t.
He was angry at himself for getting Garek involved, because he did not/could not see that getting Garek involved in this would lead to the events that took place.

In the end, the deed was done, and there was nothing he could do about it. That’s why, at the end of the episode he keeps saying “I can live with it.” He is trying to convince himself that what happened would lead to the Alpha quadrant winning the war.
He is trying to convince himself
“The ends justify the means”.

 

[FPAlpha]

Yes, but Sisko should have known that from the start that if he involved Garak in his scemes there would be some risks.

Although I understand Sisko and how he felt about it, it was wrong of him to abuse Garak for something he wanted to be done, even if it didn't happen the way he thought it would happen.

Despite that, I support Sisko in his actions. After all, they were fighting a ruthless opponent who would have comitted genocide if they had managed to defeat the federation and the Klingons.



None of them were guilty of anything except trying to save their worlds from being enslaved.

As for Sisko, he went to live among the wormhole aliens (Prophets) for a while and most likely returned to Deep Space Nine after that.

Oh Sisko knew full well what it meant when he approached Garak for help. You don't "hire" a former top Obsidian Order operative for dirty work and expect to come out clean.

This is why Sisko "hated" himself for this entire operation - he knew crimes would be committed in his name for the greater good but he also knew it was a complete betrayal of everything he was taught and stood for. Picard said to Wesley once in the Academy Shuttle Crash episode that if he can't make that hard call to stand by the truth even at personal cost he shouldn't wear the uniform. Well, Sisko did exactly that - he betrayed everything that uniform stood for.

And that is the brilliance of the episode and why i rank it amongst the highest in all of Trek - it asks the question how far can or should anyone go when the very survival of billions or trillions is at stake. Do the ends truly justify the means? This is a question everybody has to answer for themselves.

Personally i would have done what Sisko had done with the full knowledge that it was morally wrong but would save the lives of billions.

So I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would. Garak was right about one thing. A guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant, so I will learn to live with it.

 

[Snowdrop82]

Always liked Garak. You have no idea what his intentions are, if he can be trusted, or what his end game is.

 

[Michael]

Spending eternity in a bright white room with no windows seems mildly unpleasant to me.
If memory serves even the Prophets called it a penance for his warmongering.

I would submit that you’re taking the “white space” thing way too literally and that it was not supposed to mean Sisko would now be spending the rest of his existence with the Prophets in that environment.

I would also be interested to get a quote supporting the idea that the Prophets were somehow punishing Sisko “for his warmongering”. Or punishing him for anything, for that matter. Looking at the transcript on Chakoteya these are some lines of dialog relevant to why they have taken Sisko to be with them:

SARAH: Your time of trial has ended. You need to rest now.
SISKO: I intend to. As soon as I return to Deep Space Nine.
SARAH: That won't be necessary. You're with us now.

SISKO: The Prophets saved me, Kasidy. I'm their Emissary and they still have a great deal for me to do. But first, there is much to learn. Things only the Prophets can teach me.