Garak and truthiness in ITPM

[Iasius]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I'm not a regular visitor in this forum.
I'm currently watching ITPM again and I thought I'd finally start to ask you what I've been wondering for some time now:

How honest was Garak in this episode? We know that he didn't tell Sisko the whole truth, but there are some questions that I think deserve a bit of thought.

1) Did Garak actually contact any operatives in the Cardassian union or
2) Did Garak plan to kill Vreenak from the start?
3) Did Garak actually rig the door of Tolar's quarters?

I wrote down several other questions a few months ago (I originally meant to post about this then), but I can't find those right now. But I think this might be a good starting point for YAITPMT* anyway. Maybe I'll find them again tomorrow.

I guess the main question I have is, exactly how devious was Garak?


---

As an aside, DS9 is probably my favorite TV series. However I know the episodes so well nowadays that I generally don't watch any episodes during the day. I regularly put on an episode of DS9 while going to bed over the last few years. I don't even watch it, the sound is somewhat comforting. I talked about this with a friend of mine and fellow DS9 enthusiast at some point and we discovered that both do that. Anyone else here do the same?
As a consequence I know the first couple of minutes of almost every episode by heart. Not so much with the end of episodes.


* YAITPMT = Yet Another In The Pale Moonlight Thread.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I agree about teh sound. I love watching any ep because of little things like the sounds (particularly the dabo wheels and comp stations) and the lighting/ color schemes.

The best part of the episode is that these things are ambiguous. It's not up to the writers to provide you with all the answers, it's up to your imagination to come up with them.

This ep works for me even if I am just listening to it.. no visuals.

However the shot of the Rommie's shuttle is just cool as hell

 

[26138]

2) Did Garak plan to kill Vreenak from the start?

I think Garak thought there was a chance (however slim) that the fake would pass inspection, but planned ahead "just in case" things didn't go according to plan.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

2) Did Garak plan to kill Vreenak from the start?

I think Garak thought there was a chance (however slim) that the fake would pass inspection, but planned ahead "just in case" things didn't go according to plan.

Yep. Garak was a real SNAAAAAAAAAAAKE!

 

[Sisko_is_my_captain]

Oddly enough, I sometimes feel homesick for the station. Literally homesick, like it's a place I used to live and I wish I could go back and visit my friends. It's kind of a fond sadness, I suppose. One of my most favorite dreams ever was one where I was walking along the Promenade.

That's probably a bad sign, isn't it?

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

I find Garak to be quite honest here. When Sisko said he needed help, he agreed to do just that after Sisko defined the goal. Both understood the gravity of the situation, both their worlds were at stake. When Garak's operatives were killed, Sisko agreed with him that the stakes were high enough that it wasn't time to give up.

Sisko may have never consciously believed that it would take the murder of a Romulan diplomat to turn the Romulans, but he knew that Garak would help him, somehow, achieve the goal. In the end, his position was that it was implicitly Sisko's goal all along that Garak should help him do what he could not: think tactically and strategically like a master spy of the Obsedian Order.

 

[Lateralus]

Oddly enough, I sometimes feel homesick for the station. Literally homesick, like it's a place I used to live and I wish I could go back and visit my friends. It's kind of a fond sadness, I suppose. One of my most favorite dreams ever was one where I was walking along the Promenade.

That's probably a bad sign, isn't it?

Not at all.

I consider myself to be relatively 'normal'. But after having watched DS9 straight through going on 10 times, I feel like I know those characters and that place better than I know a lot of real life equivalents.

And I would kill to have a DS9 dream. Lucky you.

 

[Navaros]

1) Did Garak actually contact any operatives in the Cardassian union or
2) Did Garak plan to kill Vreenak from the start?
3) Did Garak actually rig the door of Tolar's quarters?

1) Yes.

2) No, that was just the contingency plan. No good spy ever leaves home without one.

3) Yes - and his dialogue about that is one of the very greatest dialogues in the history of Trek. Fitting that it came from the very best episode ever of Trek, which is ITPM.

 

[kevjulian]

I have to admit that when DS9 was originaly on the air I didnt even watch it but I have to say now that it is my favorite series. In fact "In the Pale Moonlight" is my favorite DS9 episode. I will comment on some of your questions and then add a few of mine.

1. Yes I would say that Garak did contact some of his friends (term used loosely) on the cardassian home world. This is possibly how he gleened the information about Sen.Vreenak.

2. and 3. Garak never leaves anything to chance, he has a contingency for everything. I would also say that he expected Sisko's punch at the end of the episode. He knew what Sisko wanted better that Sisko did.

I love the personal interaction that you feel when Sisko is dicatating his personal log. It feels like he is having a personal conversation with just you the viewer. The debate between Sisko and Dax(Vreenak) was wonderfully done.

I think Tolar new from the begining that he was a dead man when he found out that Garak was involved. If anyone else noticed something that I didnt let me know.

Kev

 

[Iasius]

I guess my suspicion about this comes from the fact that Garak said he'd have to use up all his resources and then later that they were all killed. It doesn't appear to be the case in later episodes.

As for planning to kill Vreenak, Garak told Sisko that he'd sneak aboard Vreenak's ship before Sisko met Vreenak. I don't think he'd use a remotely activated bomb/device. That's why I think he intended to kill Vreenak whether he found out that it's a fake or not.

That said, one of the reasons I like this episode so much is that we didn't get to see directly what Garak did. We know only as much as Sisko saw and was told. That gives it a very personal touch, especially with the excellent personal logs.

I'm not looking for direct evidence for any of this from the episode, but given a few clues and what we know of the characters involved, it's fun to speculate about what really happened.

 

[Navaros]

The time when Garak went aboard the ship is not relevant. He could have snuck back on later to disarm the bomb, before Vreenak returned to his ship, if Vreenak was gonna play ball. Or he could have 'spread the word' that Vreenak mustn't return to his ship until after it's first swept by bomb experts; before Vreenak returned to his ship. Or he could have left the bomb dormant and only set it to go live once he knew the outcome of the Sisko/Vreenak meeting; I know you said you don't think he'd do this, but why not? I'm sure he wouldn't be hanging around the scene of the crime and pushing the button directly when Vreenak entered the ship, but, that doesn't mean there aren't ways to be discreet and still use remote activation.

Which later episodes are you talking about, specifically, where Garak used operative contacts on Cardassia?

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

I guess my suspicion about this comes from the fact that Garak said he'd have to use up all his resources and then later that they were all killed. It doesn't appear to be the case in later episodes.

I suspect Garak would have different assets in different places with different levels of access.

As for planning to kill Vreenak, Garak told Sisko that he'd sneak aboard Vreenak's ship before Sisko met Vreenak. I don't think he'd use a remotely activated bomb/device. That's why I think he intended to kill Vreenak whether he found out that it's a fake or not.

Right, it must have been the plan all along. Even the most minor imperfection would have rendered the crystal a FAKE! And there's no such thing as a perfect fake.

That said, one of the reasons I like this episode so much is that we didn't get to see directly what Garak did. We know only as much as Sisko saw and was told. That gives it a very personal touch, especially with the excellent personal logs.

I'm not looking for direct evidence for any of this from the episode, but given a few clues and what we know of the characters involved, it's fun to speculate about what really happened.

 

[SoM]

I guess my suspicion about this comes from the fact that Garak said he'd have to use up all his resources and then later that they were all killed. It doesn't appear to be the case in later episodes.

I suspect Garak would have different assets in different places with different levels of access.

Of course. But he's very clear about the "EVERY" in ITPM. Which means either he made new contacts while in complete exile and when talking to him is a death sentence... or he lied. And this IS Elim Garak we're talking about here.

 

[Smiley]

Lesson #1: Never take anything Garak says at face value.

I suspect that Garak either never contacted his Cardassian informants or exaggerated when he said that they were all killed. After all, he would place Cardassian lives over Romulan lives any day of the week.

 

[Turbo]

I'd imagine that he probably stopped calling in his favors after the first two or three were killed.

 

[Renvar]

For one and two, I'm with the majority, in that he did try his contacts. After all, you can't really be certain how far you'd get with them under a new government until you try to utilize them, as evidenced by Garak's comment about "the effectiveness of Dominion security." He most likely was willing to wait and see if the recording passed inspection. Undoubtedly he planted the bomb beforehand just in case, but only activated it after the plan went south. In Garak's line of work, unnecesary deaths are probably avoided like the plague, since they can come back to bite you later.

As for the question about rigging Tolar's door to explode, I'd have to say false. Think about it: if Tolar did force the door and it exploded, and a bystandard was walking by the door and was injured or killed, Sisko would've been upset and called off the whole thing. Additionally, if Senator Vreenak heard of the explosion, he might've decided to not come to DS9 because it wasn't secure. An explosion is such an overt act in this covert plan that I find it highly unlikely that Garak would risk it.

 

[Apogeal Alpha01]

The whole point of 'intelligence' is to know the truth because planning without knowing the lay of the land leads to disastrous surprises. The best lie would have an element of truth, a touch of realism, given he has no way to know what information the Senator was privy to. His first step would always be acquiring information from the best sources available to him. The mission was worth potentially jeopardizing his most highly placed assets, and the information would have been quite valuable should they have lived. He learned from their deaths.

The only reason not to contact them would be that he didn't trust Sisko to know that he was contacting them, and I don't think that was the case.

 

[jealousblues]

I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I'm not a regular visitor in this forum.
I'm currently watching ITPM again and I thought I'd finally start to ask you what I've been wondering for some time now:

How honest was Garak in this episode? We know that he didn't tell Sisko the whole truth, but there are some questions that I think deserve a bit of thought.

1) Did Garak actually contact any operatives in the Cardassian union or
2) Did Garak plan to kill Vreenak from the start?
3) Did Garak actually rig the door of Tolar's quarters?

I wrote down several other questions a few months ago (I originally meant to post about this then), but I can't find those right now. But I think this might be a good starting point for YAITPMT* anyway. Maybe I'll find them again tomorrow.

I guess the main question I have is, exactly how devious was Garak?


---

As an aside, DS9 is probably my favorite TV series. However I know the episodes so well nowadays that I generally don't watch any episodes during the day. I regularly put on an episode of DS9 while going to bed over the last few years. I don't even watch it, the sound is somewhat comforting. I talked about this with a friend of mine and fellow DS9 enthusiast at some point and we discovered that both do that. Anyone else here do the same?
As a consequence I know the first couple of minutes of almost every episode by heart. Not so much with the end of episodes.


* YAITPMT = Yet Another In The Pale Moonlight Thread.

this was my favorite episode.
Probably because of how evil/non so evil? Garak was through the whole thing

 

[jealousblues]

I guess my suspicion about this comes from the fact that Garak said he'd have to use up all his resources and then later that they were all killed. It doesn't appear to be the case in later episodes.

I suspect Garak would have different assets in different places with different levels of access.

As for planning to kill Vreenak, Garak told Sisko that he'd sneak aboard Vreenak's ship before Sisko met Vreenak. I don't think he'd use a remotely activated bomb/device. That's why I think he intended to kill Vreenak whether he found out that it's a fake or not.

Right, it must have been the plan all along. Even the most minor imperfection would have rendered the crystal a FAKE! And there's no such thing as a perfect fake.

I agree. I think Garak knew that the Romulans were no fools and would figure it out. They have probably pulled the same trick many times before making FAAAAAKEs.
I think Garak knew what he was doing from the start and played Sisko the whole time.
Like the Klingon (?) guy said, the Cardassians always have a plan, within a plan leading to a trap (or something like that). I think he had it all covered from the get go.

*edit*

I mean there is no way Garak lets that rod get back to Romulus (sp?). If a senator and a couple of people on a shuttle could tell its a fake in a day, what chances do you think it had with the tal sh'ear (or however you spell it) and all the Romulans rescources testing it over a period of time?
No way he even gives them a chance

 

[Timo]

The thing is, if an "almost imperceptible" imperfection would reveal the thing as a fake, then there would be no such thing as the real deal. Even if Weoyun really made a genuine recording in which he gloated "We'll backstab those idiotic Romulans next week, nyah, nyah, and I hope they don't catch this recording", it would be analyzed, reanalyzed, and then re-reanalyzed until the analysts agreed (at gunpoint if necessary) that the thing was indeed a clever fake. And thus the analysis would tell nothing, except that the Romulans in Vreenak's camp would refuse to believe in the message and would kill the messenger.

So the only solution would be to disperse Vreenak's camp, and Garak probably understood this from the start. The forgery would simply be a necessary step in the process of achieving that.

Timo Saloniemi