Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discuss

[Anwar]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

I did like how Tywin used Jaime so well. It's kind of clear he wasn't planning on executing Tyrion (probably always going to have him take the Black) and when Jaime offered himself as a "sacrifice" Tywin jumped on this and got Jaime to agree to it. So basically it was a senseless sacrifice.

Though it's not that much of a sacrifice because Jaime is now giving up a defunct career as a bodyguard to become a powerful Lord who lives in a Great Fortress and look after a beautiful city.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Well, Jaime can't get what he wants, anyway. Ideally, he'd be back with Cersei and doing his job as Kingsguard, but Cersei doesn't want him and his job is basically a joke now. His father considers him an embarrassment, only worth the trouble because at least he's not Tyrion. Jaime has shit for honor and he knows it. Shuttling off to Casterley Rock to carry on the family name is pretty much the kindest fate left to him.

 

[bbjeg]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

I haven't read the books nor knew the name of the next episode. I merely thought Tyrion could hit two birds with one stone by choosing Oberyn, Tyrion lives and Oberyn gets his revenge (should Tywin pick the Mountain which he likely would).

I just don't understand why Tyrion would care about Oberyn having a chance at his revenge, not in the state of mind he was in when he made the decision to request a trial by combat. Choosing Jaime would hurt his father the most; either Jaime wins and Tyrion is freed, or Tywin loses both of his male heirs. The only problem is that he does care for Jaime, so risking his life would be the only reason he wouldn't choose him. But... he had lost it at that point, too.

So yeah, why would he choose Oberyn? From Tyrion's point of view and current state of mind, in which it's clear he doesn't even really care if he lives or dies.

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense from the perspective that Tyrion at all gives a shit about Oberyn or his grudge. Chances are that just like at the Eyrie the person against Tyrion will be picked first. And if that is Gregor Clegane, then it might make sense that Oberyn would then volunteer to defend Tyrion. But I don't know exactly how one could have sussed that out without knowledge of the episode title or books.

The initial claim was just what I would like to see. Believe me when I say I haven't read the book. I'm a strong advocate against people spoiling the book.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

...has Oberyn even been referred to as "the Viper" in the show?

Haha, I don't think so. I think I've only ever seen that online, so yeah, the episode name isn't entirely spoilery. But apparently the season preview may have been, although I never saw that.

This is then a win-win for Tywin. If the Mountain loses, Jamie is at least saved and the Lannister bloodline has a chance to continue. If the Mountain wins, Oberyn is likely dead, who is a threat to Tywin and is now removed.

I dunno, it seems like if the Mountain dies he loses a powerful champion and Tyrion is set free (which Tywin doesn't seem to want). And if Oberyn dies by the hand of the one who killed his sister, wouldn't his brother and family in Dorne be even more upset at the Lannisters? It doesn't seem too win-win.

Believe me when I say I haven't read the book.

I believe you, but it just seemed like a strange conjecture to me. And dang it, I really liked my Jaime theory!

 

[Saul]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

... the only conclusion one could really draw is that she was forced under duress to go along with this, perhaps with the promise that Tyrion's life would be spared in exchange for her cooperation...

I think Shea is just a scorned woman. Besides, by going along, it would only help Tyrion get the death sentence. That's not something someone would do to help spare them.

But that's politics. Her testimony conclusively "proving" Tyrion did the deed ensures a conviction, and she may have been promised that Tyrion's life would be spared if (and only if) she helped convict him. Not to mention her own life, which is worthless in Westeros thanks to her line of work. If she didn't cooperate, no one would waste a thought on her fate and she knows it.

Did she have to make it such a personal testimony. One mentioning how she called him 'Lion' etc. Tyrion seemed pretty convinced that she had screwed him over.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

I think Shea is just a scorned woman. Besides, by going along, it would only help Tyrion get the death sentence. That's not something someone would do to help spare them.

But that's politics. Her testimony conclusively "proving" Tyrion did the deed ensures a conviction, and she may have been promised that Tyrion's life would be spared if (and only if) she helped convict him. Not to mention her own life, which is worthless in Westeros thanks to her line of work. If she didn't cooperate, no one would waste a thought on her fate and she knows it.

Did she have to make it such a personal testimony. One mentioning how she called him 'Lion' etc. Tyrion seemed pretty convinced that she had screwed him over.

She was in an impossible situation but yes, I can see her using the opportunity to lash out at him for spurning her, even if she doesn't actually hate him. It's not hard to imagine her feelings about him are very mixed.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

The testimony was even worse in the books, where she said he had her call him "Her Giant of Lannister" which everyone laughed their guts out over.

Basically, she took Tyrion's "armor" (his dwarf status) and turned it right back into the shame he's always lived with. She totally destroyed the facade of confidence and joviality he'd built up his whole life.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Book Shae is a totally different character so I don't think it makes much sense to discuss her here.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Yes, in the books she's basically this 1-Dimensional clingy girl who we're never meant to like.

Then again, Tywin and Cersei are both kind of 1-Dimensional in the books as well and I'm very grateful the series chose to make them real characters in this adaption.

 

[Evil Twin]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

I still mourn the loss of Tywin's muttonchops, however.

 

[Forbin]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

 

[Bisz]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Did you guys watch the same scene I did? Did no one pay attention to Shae's performance? ... the only conclusion one could really draw is that she was forced under duress to go along with this, perhaps with the promise that Tyrion's life would be spared in exchange for her cooperation.

To answer your question, clearly no, we did not watch the same scene.

Her performance did not say "I'm sorry Tyrion, I'm being forced to do this against my will, help me!"

It said "You had called me just a whore and sent me away, well, here I am, just a whore, whoring myself to someone else now."

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Did you guys watch the same scene I did? Did no one pay attention to Shae's performance? ... the only conclusion one could really draw is that she was forced under duress to go along with this, perhaps with the promise that Tyrion's life would be spared in exchange for her cooperation.

To answer your question, clearly no, we did not watch the same scene.

Her performance did not say "I'm sorry Tyrion, I'm being forced to do this against my will, help me!"

It said "You had called me just a whore and sent me away, well, here I am, just a whore, whoring myself to someone else now."

Her performance doesn't read that way at all.

 

[bbjeg]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

I read it closer to Bisz explanation than her being forced to say he made me call him his Lion and outing his "Fuck me like it's my last day on this earth" (or something like that). That was personal information, not a script Cersei gave her. She could have lied about everything and made up the history they had together but instead gave detailed info (plus the lie about the poison).

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

I think it was equal parts anger at how he sent her away and intimidation from Cersei. I just think it's too simple to imagine she's a mean bitch out to hurt Tyrion. She is no doubt angry with him, but that is hardly all that's motivating her behavior.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Did you guys watch the same scene I did? Did no one pay attention to Shae's performance? ... the only conclusion one could really draw is that she was forced under duress to go along with this, perhaps with the promise that Tyrion's life would be spared in exchange for her cooperation.

To answer your question, clearly no, we did not watch the same scene.

Her performance did not say "I'm sorry Tyrion, I'm being forced to do this against my will, help me!"

It said "You had called me just a whore and sent me away, well, here I am, just a whore, whoring myself to someone else now."

Her performance doesn't read that way at all.

To you, perhaps. Your opinion is of course valid and as legitimate as anyone else, but it's hardly 'the only conclusion one could really draw.' Interpreting a performance is an entirely subjective thing.

 

[QCzar]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Agreed, and I interpret it the same way as Bisz. It's ambiguous enough that I can accept I could be wrong, but where Robert saw coerced, I saw scorned. Considering the "flexible" integrity of most characters on this show, I have no trouble at all imagining her acting out of spite.

FWIW, I do hope I'm not wrong, as having her be a victim (and thus a presumptive ally of Tyrion) would kinda be a copout. The reason Dinklage's performance is so resounding is that it really illuminates the astounding amount of betrayal demonstrated by all those conspiring against him he feels in that very moment. Shae being, as it were, the final straw. It would be deflating if they took the corny, clichéd way out (and also entirely inconsistent with the tone of this show).

 

[Venardhi]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Yes, in the books she's basically this 1-Dimensional clingy girl who we're never meant to like.

Then again, Tywin and Cersei are both kind of 1-Dimensional in the books as well and I'm very grateful the series chose to make them real characters in this adaption.

I disagree entirely. They are different characters, more sympathetic characters, but they aren't any more "real." Some folk are just shitty people.

 

[Anwar]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

Thing is, the reason why book Tywin and book Cersei are shitty people is purely for Tyrion's benefit. Martin made them both so 1-Dimensionally nasty simply so we'd cheer for Tyrion more and to make him sympathetic no matter what he does. It's nothing to do with their own characters or just because "there are shitty people out there", it's entirely just to make Tyrion look good.

 

[Venardhi]

Re: Game of Thrones 4.6 - "The Laws of Gods and Men" - Rate and discus

We apparently read different books.