Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Enterprise is Great, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Bullshit. She's special because of her actions, because of who she is and what she chooses to fight for.
     
  2. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    I suggest you read WW # #183, July-Aug 1969. "Return to Paradise Island!" There you'll see Ares addressing Hippolyta as "daughter" and Diana calling Ares "grandfather".

    John Byrne has him as Diana's Grandfather in his run as well, but I'm not sure of the issue numbers.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I've been meaning to do this for a while.

    Read the last Wonder Woman comic.

    Here's what dismays me, it's the final issue, and what do they do?

    Marry Diana and Steve Trevor.

    Yuck.

    (read, read, read.)

    Oh, that was awful.

    Hades tries to join forces with the Antimonitor?

    The Amazons turn into Zombies.

    Then a wedding out of no where on the last page.

    Deserved to be cancelled.
     
  4. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do I have to spell it out?! It's fiction, and there's subtext there. She went from being the child a woman longed for to being the bastard of a regrettable affair, and her powers all come from her father - not from the goddesses, but her father! She'd be a normal human being, if it weren't for that man.

    The subtext of the original version was that Diana does not need a man to be special. The subtext of the New 52 version (which is a response to the original one, remember that) is "Yes, she does!".

    Alright, you two, what are her actions?! What does she fight for? I dropped the New 52 books rather quickly, but what little I read (and saw in the "JL: War" animated movie), she behaved like a klingon with a sword glued to her hand. She despises diplomacy and seeks violent battle to kill her opponents. This is almost a complete reverse of what Wonder Woman was before.

    I have come to the conclusion that, with her completely new origin and her completely new personality, the New 52 version is a completely different character and not the proper Wonder Woman. Thus, I won't waste my money on the comics, and should the movies really take their cues from that version instead of the proper one, I'm not gonna waste my money on those, either. You guys have fun with Wonder-Woman-in-name-only, but I'm out.
     
  5. Fist McStrongpunch

    Fist McStrongpunch Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Didn't most of her powers come from her gear anyway? Lasso, bracelets, flight girdle and whatnot?
     
  6. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    No, her powers were gifts from the Gods. Not unlike Captain Marvels.

    From the Wiki

    In the Silver Age:

    "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."

    Post Crisis

    Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fertility, blessed Diana with strength drawn from the Earth spirit Gaea, making her one of the physically strongest heroes in the DC Universe and the strongest female heroine of all in the DC Universe.[132] Her connection to the earth allows her to heal at an accelerated rate so long as she is in contact with the planet. In rare cases where she has been gravely injured, Diana showed the ability to physically merge with the earth, causing whatever injuries or poisons to be expelled from her body; such an act is considered sacred, and can only be used in extreme cases.[133]
    Pallas Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war, granted Diana great wisdom, intelligence, and military prowess. Athena's gift has enabled Diana to master over a dozen languages (including those of alien origin), multiple complex crafts, sciences and philosophies, as well as leadership, military strategy, and armed and unarmed combat. More recently, Athena bound her own eyesight to Diana's, granting her increased empathy.[134]
    Artemis, goddess of the hunt, animals, and the Moon, graced Diana with the Eyes of the Hunter and unity with beasts. The Eyes of the Hunter ability gives Diana a full range of enhanced senses, including telescopic vision and super hearing.
    Hestia, goddess of hearth and home, granted Diana sisterhood with fire. This power has been shown to control the "Fires of Truth," which Diana wields through her lasso, making anyone bound by it unable to lie.[135] This ability also grants her resistance to both normal and supernatural fire.
    Hermes, the messenger god of speed, granted Diana superhuman speed and the ability to fly.[135] She is capable of flying at speeds approaching half the speed of light.[133] She can react quickly enough to deflect bullets, lasers, and other projectiles with her virtually impenetrable bracelets. After the 2011 relaunch of the character, Wonder Woman does not naturally possess the power of flight. She gains it once she is hit by a feather thrown by Hermes.[136][137][better source needed]
    Aphrodite, goddess of love, bestowed Diana with stunning beauty, as well as a kind heart.
     
  7. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    Are you sure? I was under the impression that Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Amazon all had the same divine empowerment as Diana. I can't speak for post-Crisis and the Perez reboot since I have not read it (not for a lack of trying though. The omnibus is coming out Aug 2015 though!). It's why I brought up Donna Troy. She was a normal human baby, who was brought to Paradise Island and made an amazon. With all the powers that apply. Super strong but still weaker than Diana.


    No reason to get angry. You obviously view the situation with Diana's origins differently than I do. Thing is I don't think making Diana the love child between Zeus and Hippolyta counts as misogny (prejudice against women). In the myths, Hippolyta had a son named Hippolytus. Whose father was the demigod Theseus; who slew the Minotaur. In the animated Justice League series they wrote Hippolyta had a consensual relationship with Hades before he tried to take Olympus. In the 2009 animated WW movie, it is implied that Ares forced/raped Hippolyta and the offspring of that act (in greek myths anytime a god or goddesss has sex a pregnancy is the result) was the demigod Thrax. Then there is the original tale and the Perez reboot where the Amazons were previously subjugated and raped by Hercules and his men. Trot over the the Marvel Universe and the Hippolyta of that universe had a relationship with Hercules. Although very different from the one in the DC universe. The Marvel Herc is a bit of a goof and Hippolyta more vindictive against Herc for bedding her and leaving her to complete his 12 Labors.

    So Brian Azzerello wants to pair Hippolyta with Zeus, doesn't even register on my radar as something to shake my fist at. Plenty of people have shipped Hippolyta with notable Greek figures through out many different incarnations. You and I are free to like and dislike which ones we choose.


    But think about this for a second. Compare New52 Wonder Woman with Raven from Teen Titans. Raven if you are not aware is the half demon daughter of DC's version of Satan, Trigon. And yet despite who her father is, Raven is not defined by him or his malevolent acts of cruelty. Raven fights for justice and peace. Raven was raised only by her mother and was raised with the teachings and culture of Azarath. The teaching of Azarath prevent any of the inhabitants from interfering or resisting what the future may bring. Even if it is certain doom. Raven defied all of that and set out to stop her father Trigon at any cost. Raven brought the Teen Titans together to combat her father, when the Justice League refused to help her. Raven used her magic powers to seek out those she knew possessed the same strong feelings of justice and courage that were found the the Justice League. With a lot of luck and a lot of effort Raven and the Titans were able to beat Trigon several times in the past.


    Like Raven, WW is defined by her actions. Having a father good or evil does not make a character dependent on that individual.

    See above post with about Raven and her father.
     
  8. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Always interesting how people interpret one's emotions on an online message board. :lol:

    You realize none of the relationships and affairs and rapes you mentioned resulted in the birth of Diana, do you? Azzerallo changed that. And, like I wrote above, it's a response. It would be different if Wonder Woman always had had that origin, but she didn't. It was changed, from this to that. So, why change this? And if change this, why change this to that?


    [QUOTEBut think about this for a second. Compare New52 Wonder Woman with Raven from Teen Titans. Raven if you are not aware is the half demon daughter of DC's version of Satan, Trigon. And yet despite who her father is, Raven is not defined by him or his malevolent acts of cruelty. Raven fights for justice and peace. Raven was raised only by her mother and was raised with the teachings and culture of Azarath. The teaching of Azarath prevent any of the inhabitants from interfering or resisting what the future may bring. Even if it is certain doom. Raven defied all of that and set out to stop her father Trigon at any cost. Raven brought the Teen Titans together to combat her father, when the Justice League refused to help her. Raven used her magic powers to seek out those she knew possessed the same strong feelings of justice and courage that were found the the Justice League. With a lot of luck and a lot of effort Raven and the Titans were able to beat Trigon several times in the past.


    Like Raven, WW is defined by her actions. Having a father good or evil does not make a character dependent on that individual. [/QUOTE]

    See above. Raven's origin always was like this, nobody changed it into this.

    Also, Raven is a great character and a cool superheroine, but she's not an icon of feminism. Wonder Woman was put on the cover of the first issue of Ms. Magazine, the proper one and not the revamped depowered one DC was publishing at the time.
    Wonder Woman is not just a character, she is a symbol in our reality.
     
  9. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She fights for those who can't fight for themselves. She stands up for the innocents caught up in a battle between larger forces.

    In the big arc of the WW comic, she has been helping protect a young woman and her baby from the Greek deities that seek to control or destroy her. WW is standing between her and them.

    Her actions are more important than her origin:

    1. We don't dwell on her origins over and over. The stories are about the present for the character. Her past is her past, it's what she's doing now.

    2. Think about Bruce Wayne. Sadly, lots of kids lose their parents, not all of them grow up to be Batman. It's the actions he takes that makes him special.

    I can't speak to the rest, but her book with Azz in charge has been great. It's the only Wonder Woman book I have ever stuck with. It's like if Neil Gaiman had been writing a super hero book. How he has mixed Greek myth and the supernatural, it's been great. And I really like how it has pretty much ignored the rest of the nu52.

    Ok. I guess don't let the door hit you on the way out then. But, you're missing out on a great book because you are holding onto a singular vision of what a character with 75 years of history "has" to be.

    Your loss.
     
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    Azz's WW is the best the book has been in a very long time.
     
  11. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Okay, you know what, I'll make it very, very simple to you: Imagine DC decided that their official Superman didn't come from another planet, after all. Imagine DC telling us that Batman's parents did not die at all. Now, if you can imagine the outrage over that, add to it a gender-political level, and you may begin to understand.
     
  12. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    The first one only works if you remove the Amazon aspect. WW being an Amazon is her "alien". Her "parents die" moment is the arrival of Steve Trevor.
     
  13. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You really try hard, I grant you, but seriously, being alien is Superman's origin. Being shaped out of clay and granted life by Aphrodite is Wonder Woman's. The comparison still stands.

    But okay, let's say Superman is alien, but he didn't come from Krypton. Or Krypton was never destroyed. That's even better, because one of the never-made movie scripts in the early 2000s featured that, and every review on the internet on that particular script complained about that very aspect, and I have yet to come across anybody who thought that was a good idea.
     
  14. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    I grew up in the time where "imaginary stories" were common. I've read countless twists on Superman, so I'm not phased too much when change happens to him or any superhero. Byrne's Man of Steel is my preferred take on Superman, but I'm cool with what came before and after ( except Birthright WTF was that??? ;) ) Clay baby is a very minor part of WW's origin. Diana's Amazon background and connection the Greek Gods are much more important to her origins than clay baby.
     
  15. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The difference is you don't have to be a comic book fan to know Superman and Batman's origin story by now. Hardly anyone knows WW's, other than the fact she's an Amazon.

    WW herself might be iconic, but her origin most definitely is not.
     
  16. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

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    To be fair, I think the "being made out of clay" things is more akin to whether Kal-El was born on Krypton, was a newborn when he left or a toddler or if was a genetic construct matrix thingy on board the pod and was "born" (decanted?) upon arriving on Earth.
    Such details have been played with before in various re-tellings of the origin over the years.

    Not that I'm crazy about the whole "Daughter of Zeus" idea. Honestly, I prefer the DCAU take where she is made of clay, but it's implied that *Hades* was Hippolyta's lover at the time and sculpted Diana with her. Adds a bit more pathos to the relationship IMO while staying true to the original story.
     
  17. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    I agree with Kai. The point of Wonder Woman's origin is that she is a product entirely of female origin in order to show that the feminine can produce strength and power just as well as the male world. DC went with normalizing the character by giving her a father, even one step further, a father far more powerful than the mother. The mother and the Amazons have been devalued to a race of misanthropes who murder their mates, trade male children for guns, and have no real redeeming qualities. Her greatest training has come from Ares, another powerful male and has taken on his mantel, all the while the mother is a largely background and irrelevant character.

    The character has been given a standard patriarchal origin with the feminine put in a background of tropes about Amazons that are the demonized form envisioned by the Greeks and like them needs to be educated by the patriarchal world and themselves have nothing to offer. The whole thing is an inversion of Marston's original whose purpose was to celebrate the world of femininity. Now, that world is one Wonder Woman survived and has little to show for as her power and training is at heart from men.
     
  18. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You know what, no. The Amazon aspect is not WW's "alien". It's her upbringing. As such, it would be equivalent to Superman being raised by the Kents. Being made out of clay clearly is WW's "alien".

    I grew up in the time where "imaginary stories" were common. I've read countless twists on Superman, so I'm not phased too much when change happens to him or any superhero. Byrne's Man of Steel is my preferred take on Superman, but I'm cool with what came before and after ( except Birthright WTF was that??? ;) ) Clay baby is a very minor part of WW's origin. Diana's Amazon background and connection the Greek Gods are much more important to her origins than clay baby.[/QUOTE]

    You know, those were "imaginary stories", the early versions of the Elseworlds. I'd propably be able to ignore Zeus being WW's father, were it not canon. But DC decided that it is. You might say, well you decide for yourself what's canon to you, what's the true version. And yes, I do. Problem is, the publisher doesn't think so anymore, and the executive producer of the new movies, the first theatrical version of WW, don't think so.

    And how sad is that?!
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    Entirely female? One origin has her getting powers from Heracles and Hermes. So there have been male influences in her beginnings. And being with Steve Trevor is an important factor in why she goes to Man's World.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Ghost of Tom Joad Premium Member

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    Of course its her "alien". Its what sets her apart from us human. She the product a immortal society of woman who live in a culture based on Ancient Greece and worship the Greek God.

    Of course I know that. But other stories were not. What's canon now, might not be canon tomorrow. If you live long enough Wonder Woman won't have a daddy again.