Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Enterprise is Great, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I'm pretty sure the only reason they changed Diana's origin in the Azzarello/Chiang run is to give her a more direct tie to the Gods, and more of a reason to become involved in their conflict. I doubt any of the stuff you guys are throwing out had anything to do with it. Sure they probably could have considered the implications of what they were doing, but hindsight is always 20/20
     
  2. Showdown

    Showdown Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Many times, people change origin stories of our comic book superheroes. Many variations through many mediums, incarnations, reboots, etc. I think some changes are okay, but some are not. As long as the story is good and character arc is the same.

    I don't mind the alteration to Wonder Woman's origin. If others hate the idea, that's alright because people will have different opinions. I think they are just following the New52 origin, which was to simplify Diana's origin story. Whether it is made from clay and given life from magic of the Olympic gods, or offspring of King of the Olympic gods, Zeus; it is okay, because at least the gods have a role in her origin. May not be the same role, but they are part of it. Also, the movie going public is more familiar with Hercules and Perceus, Greek heroes who are part god, and can see where she gets her powers. Also, in the DCU, Ares hinted that he may be Diana's father, and the whole clay story is something her mother made up. He could be lying, but the possibility is there. Also, maybe the Olympians will be similiar to the Asgardians, but a more active role. God-like people who came to Earth to save humanity, and humans worship them. Themyscira and Atlantis could be connected this way. As long as Wonder Woman's character and story arc remain intact, with the Amazons and Themyscira, it will be fine.

    Other heroes have changes too. Take Batman, for example. Bruce's parents were murdered before his eyes when he is a child, a traumatic event that started his journey to being Batman. That has always been the same. But, in Tim Burton's movie, the Joker killed his parents. In the Nolan movies, it was Joe Chill, who was later arrested, jailed, and murdered. In some continuities, their killer is unknown and was probably never brought to justice. That pain was never resolved, and Bruce never had closure.

    Or Superman. Planet Krypton was destroyed, but not before Jor-El sent infant Kal-El on a spaceship to Earth. What caused Krypton's destruction? A natural disaster, mining the core, or a civil war leading to Brainiac to ignite the planet's core? Also, when Clark grew up and becomes Superman, were both his adoptive parents still alive, just his adoptive mother, or neither. What ethnicity is Perry White?

    Originally, Tony Stark was captured during the Vietnam War when he first built his initial Iron-Man suit, but was updated to the Middle-East. Ultimate Thor was seen as a delusional, crazy person; while in the MCU, people see him as a heroic alien, like Superman. Does Peter Parker develop web-shooters or have organic ones as part of his powers?

    Does alterations to Superman's, Batman's, or any other hero origin change who they are. Well, those are small and can easily be overlooked. Some are just terrible, like Batman & Robin's version of Batgirl. The only thing they kept, besides being a girl, was her first name. Or Halle Berry's Catwoman travesty. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Why WB even bother calling her Catwoman when she is absolutely nothing like DC's Catwoman. Ninja Turtles being aliens, glad that was averted. While we can have endless debates on changes, we should focus on the core character. Does the changes ruin the character or not?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2014
  3. AvBaur

    AvBaur Captain Captain

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    Apparently, they explicitly want a female director for the Wonder Woman movie: http://io9.com/wb-dc-actually-wants-a-female-director-for-the-wonder-w-1650369884

    I think this is pretty cool! Obviously, you want the best person to get the job regardless of gender, but if that person always ends up being a white man, then maybe the system isn't exactly fair. So I think this is a good move, especially for such an iconic female character.

    On the other hand, the list of female directors who'd be interested in directing a superhero movie and have the right kind of previous experience isn't very long. Off the top of my head, I can think of:

    Kathryn Bigelow (The Hurt Locker) - Is she still interested in something other than political, serious movies?
    Catherine Hardwicke (Twilight)
    Jennifer Lee (Frozen)
    Jennifer Yuh (Kung Fu Panda 2)
    Brenda Chapman (Brave)
    Michelle McLaren (Breaking Bad, Game of Thrones) - Not much feature experience, but one of the best tv directors around.
    Patty Jenkins (Monster) - She almost made Thor 2.
    Kimberly Peirce (Carrie)
    Mimi Leder (Deep Impact) - Has some blockbuster experience, but they'll likely want someone "fresher."
    Karyn Kusama (Aeon Flux) & Lexi Alexander (Punisher War Zone) - Unlikely choices, since their previous superhero movies were critically panned flops.
    Angelina Jolie (Unbroken) & Jodie Foster (The Beaver) - They have plenty of action experience as actors, but their directorial work doesn't scream "superhero movie."

    Obviously, there are plenty of other female directors, but they're not gonna hire Lena Dunham or Nancy Meyers, are they?

    Of course, it's not impossible that they'd hire someone without any previous experience as a director, but a strong understanding of the material/genre (like Bob Orci on Star Trek 3). In that case, someone like Jane Goldman (Kick-Ass) or Jane Espenson (BSG) might be in the running.

    Do you have any suggestions I didn't think of?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  4. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My problem with this line of thinking is this. Let's say Peter Jackson (or pick the director you think brings big name attention and talent) expresses an interest in doing a Wonder Woman origin story. He promises to keep the movie at a reasonable length of time, yet also promises to make her origin epic and worthy of the big screen.

    Is the response "No, we want a woman to make this the best movie possible." as if that's the most important factor here?

    Also, why do they have to be so obvious about it. Why can't a woman direct the Justice League movie? Or Flash? Can women only direct stories about woman? What does that say about our limitations and what we're forcing to occur?

    Remember (as mentioned above) when Patty Jenkins was originally up for Thor 2? I don't recall what happened, but I bet Disney/Marvel wasn't all "We need a female director for this!" when they originally considered her, but looked at what she brought to the table. It's almost a shame she didn't get the job, just so that this quota-finding way of thinking wouldn't need to be an earth shattering headline.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
  5. AvBaur

    AvBaur Captain Captain

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    ^ No question: in an ideal world, in which Hollywood is a perfect meritocracy, female directors would get a fair shot at every kind of movie. But as long as the system is rigged against anyone who isn't a white man, this kind of affirmative-action hiring is one of the things that can be done to move towards a more egalitarian industry/society. Sure, it shouldn't have to be the "girl movie," but you have to start somewhere, right?
     
  6. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Bingo.

    While a woman directing Wonder Woman is a bit on the nose, it is better than having yet another white male director.
     
  7. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, phrases like "your loss" don't really seem that understanding.

    Here we go. Yes, technically, they're just comics. But in reality, they're more than that. They are icons, role models to children, they are generation-spanning symbols of hope and dreams of helping others and fulfilling one's own potential. And these are not just phrases, they are true. Wonder Woman, specifically, is an icon of feminism. The New 52 Wonder Woman isn't even a feminist herself, according to the upcoming writer/artist team of her solo title. And the change in her origin is a major symptom of this new direction, whether it was inteded or not.

    Well, even if you don't care, there would be outrage over such a change in Superman's origin, and it would result in making him a different character. A similar one, maybe, but different. While I usually agree on "actions make the man" (or woman), with fiction, there's always subtext to be considered. The creator does not just create this one character, but the universe this character inhabits, complete with subtext. So, yeah, origin does matter.

    Invalid comparison, as that was an alternate version, not the official one, and also ...

    ... because it is specifically a different character.

    But this is about more than quality of story. They use the brand of Wonder Woman for a different character. It's like the Roland Emmerich "Godzilla", just being a giant lizard doesn't make it Godzilla. This is a case of making the character fit the narrative, which is okay for a new, freshly created character, but with a character with over 75 years of history, being handled by dozens (if not hundreds) of creators, the narrative must fit the legacy of this character.

    First off, thanks for that. Other people have been rather less tolerant when I and others with a similar opinion have voiced our ... opinions.

    How simple do you need to get? Are people nowadays that stupid?! The animated feature needed about a minute of screentime to cover the clay origin, Paul Dini and Alex Ross did a two-page spread on WW's and the Amazons' complete origin, with one panel with one or two sentences of captions being enough to cover the "made from clay, given life by the gods" part. I know, "daughter of Zeus" is three words, but do we really need to get that simple?!

    See my above passages on subtext and Wonder Woman's status as a feminist icon.

    Well, as for familiarity with characters created from inanimate material, how about Pinocchio? Everyone knows him and accepts his origin. And Data, for that matter.

    I can't remember that instance. I remember Ares calling Hyppolita his daughter and, therefore, Diana his granddaughter, but that's not like what you suggest. Also, implying is not the same as flat-out saying.

    I guess we disagree on the degree with which a change in details becomes a major change.

    Also, really?! Black Perry White as an example? Know what, I would have little problems with Wonder Woman being black (maybe would take some time to get used to the change in the visual presentation, but no more), certainly fewer problems than with the changes they made to her origin and personality in the New 52.

    Something necessary when you don't have the character aging in real-time.

    There's an idea for DC, just copy what Marvel is doing. Have to different universes, one with the classic version and one with the New 52, which can be whatever it wants to be for all I care, as long as I have the proper version.

    Also, the difference in your example is in perception only. Both Ultimate and MC proper Thor are gods, the heroic alien was something done for the movies (I guess people really are that stupid).

    And here's the thing, I would put the New 52 version of Wonder Woman right alongside B&R's Batgirl and Halle Berry's Catwoman, in that it is a completely different character in both origin and personality.


    Edit: I'm also in favor of at least trying to get a female director with the right vision. DC's idea of the right vision might not be compatible with my idea of the right vision, but that's beside the point.

    Also, just a thought: WB still has Joss Whedon's Wonder Woman screenplay lying around. The marketing possibilities of "From the writer/director of The Avengers" alone should be enough to start considering to use this paid-for script after all.
     
  8. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Perhaps not understanding in an "I'm sorry for your loss", but I don't know why you would think I don't understand your reasoning.

    Of course, they are all icons. But, is Wonder Woman's origin REALLY iconic? In the way that Superman's and Batman's is?

    And in terms of the New 52, didn't you say you haven't read it?
    Also: the incoming team had nothing to do with the change of her origin. So, those two aren't connected. Again, read the book.

    Of course there would be outrage. There's outrage over the lack of underwear. Outrage on the internet doesn't mean vast numbers of people.

    Sure. They matter. But to what degree? Comic book characters aren't immutable pieces of fiction. They are changing all the time. If they are truly myths of our times, they should change.

    And comics aren't the work of one person. They are many people over decades.

    It's not an invalid comparison. It's an example of other ways to motivate someone to dress up like a bat.

    Did you just take my outrage comment seriously? You do realize, I was making a joke at your expense, yes? The hard water thing is the Golden Age Flash's origin vs. The Silver Age's....

    I used it as an example. Both of them share the same power really, and the point is, how they get their power is pretty inconsequential to who they are and how they use their powers. It's an example that their actions make them iconic, not how they got their powers.

    I think about Peter Parker. The radioactive spider bite. Sure. It gives him his powers. And in the 60s anything radioactive does weird things--other than give you cancer. But, now, most people would know better. But, sure, the spider gives him his power, but it's the death of his Uncle Ben that makes him a hero.

    In the movies, how Peter gets his powers have changed with the time. It's not radioactive. It's DNA. But, what hasn't changed? Uncle Ben's death.

    Wonder Woman could be made from clay, or birth, whatever. But, that's not the some total of her origin, or even what motivates her. Paradise Island (or some version of that), that motivates, her being a fish out of water in our world. That motivates.

    I also wanted to respond to this:

    1. You do know the DCU is a multiverse right? Like, 52 different ones?

    2. What do you mean "proper"? What is a proper version of a character that's been around for 75 years, has changed, been rebooted? That's like asking for the "proper" Batman. Which one is that? The one from the 40s? The 70s? Frank Miller's "I'm the God Damn Batman"? Which is the proper Superman? Who is getting to define proper? You? Me? DC? The current writer? The writer who is coming in?
     
  9. Tom Hendricks

    Tom Hendricks That boy is our last hope, NO! there is another. Premium Member

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    This is why I'm excited to see the new Fantastic Four movie. It maybe crap but at least it's doing so with its own story and version of the Fantastic Four.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    10 years from now there is going to be new Fantastic Four.

    Let's just scrub this botchjob, and wait for he next one.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Neil The Hippy Premium Member

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    :confused:
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    It's like catching a train.

    The train you are waiting for stops on the platform.

    You're about to board, when you notice the overpowering stench of a few kilo's of loose shit.

    So, you wait for the next one.
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Neil The Hippy Premium Member

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    I think you're at the wrong station and are on the wrong train.
     
  14. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Clean Old Mod Moderator

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    Sorry, too much suspension of disbelief right there.
     
  15. martok2112

    martok2112 Commodore Commodore

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    :guffaw::rofl::guffaw::rofl:
     
  16. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, it often appears like you, and other participants in this discussion, don't want to understand. One example actually came from you. After I said that I have no interest in the further releases of the in my opinion completely transformed character in both origin and personality, your response was:

    You call me condescending, when there you basically call me backwards for thinking feminist subtext in Wonder Woman comics mattering a great deal. So, please excuse me if I feel a little bit misunderstood.

    No, which is a problem in itself, imo, but the problem still stands. A feminist origin turned into a less-so origin. And furthermore, in the Azzerallo book, the original origin (weird phrase, but to the point) is called a lie, which just adds insult to injury.

    You are misremembering. I gave the New 52 a fair chance, I read several books from the start. Over a period of time, I have dropped them all, realizing that they don't appeal to me in any way. WW was the first book I dropped, but I read some issues before making up my mind.

    First off, the comments from the incoming team are indecative of the climate at DC editorial at the moment, and that influenced Azzerallo's run as well. Also, on a personal level, it is an indecation that I propably won't like the book any better with the new team.
    Second off, I won't read a book that doesn't appeal to me on any level, but feels like a perversion of a character which is very dear to me.

    Better leave the red trunks out of it, you don't want to even start that discussion with me. :rolleyes: Anyway, it's a matter of whether the outrage is justified. If a character is turned into someone completely different, then I think it is.

    Thanks for stating this obvious and totally irrelevant fact.

    Like I said, it's about subtext, and whether a new subtext is contradicting an established one. When John Byrne rebooted Superman, he had Kal-El travelling through space as an embryo, with his actual "birth" happening when the Kents found him. The subtext here is Clark being born on American soil, a patriotic subtext fitting the 1980s pop culture. And while I don't favor this particular interpretation, I am okay with it because it does not change what the fictional character Superman stands for.
    The same can not be said about the daughter-of-Zeus origin of Wonder Woman. Considering what was before, it is contradictory to the feminism the character is associated with.

    It is invalid, in that it did not change the canon of the character. You may not feel that way, or at least not as strongly as I and many others, but origins do matter.

    First off, I did get what you were doing, and I'm very familiar with the origins of the various Flashes. A joke at my expense, only that I don't agree on the comparison. In other words, your joke doesn't work. They are two different characters, the different origins didn't cause a dramatic change in subtext, and the Silver Age Flash was not a replacement of the Golden Age Flash, as the latter had been discontinued for a long time before the former came along.

    There is no change in subtext in any of your examples, as they were changes made to update the science fiction aspects of the characters. Wonder Woman's origins, both of them, are not science-based, but mythological. Since people don't believe any less in Zeus and Aphrodite today than they did in the 1940s, I don't see any need or even incentive to update.

    I do wonder how often I have to repeat myself before you acknowledge my point that subtext is inherent not only in the character, but also in the universe it inhabits. Maybe even moreso, since the character could always be portrayed to be wrong.

    I also wanted to respond to this:

    1. Yes, multiverse. If only they used it to the effect of actually publish comics set in the pre-52 universe. But, apart from some of the stories published in "Adventures of Superman" (which has already ceased publication) and "Sensation Comics featuring Wonder Woman", there's nothing. Oh, yeah, Captain Marvel will appear in an upcoming issue of "Multiversity". Sorry, this is nothing like the situation over at Marvel with MU proper and Ultimate Marvel.

    2. Oh, for fuck's sake, do I really have to go into this? By now, you should know that I don't care for the New 52, so when I'm saying "proper version", it should be obvious that I am referring to the pre-52 version, or a universe which does not differ from it as dramatically as the New 52, because that would be proper to me. If you prefer I can rephrase: I wish DC would do as Marvel is doing with their Marvel U proper (no argument when anyone says that) and Ultimate Marvel U, and publish comics from both the New 52and the pre-52 universe, so the reader can choose to read the version he/she prefers (or both, if they choose to).

    Now, I have been working on this post for over an hour, I'm exhausted, and to be quite honest, since we apparently are not going to agree on this, I'm deciding to leave it at that. We'll have to agree to disagree, and just make our peace with you liking Azzerallo's run, and me not liking it.
     
  17. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Neil The Hippy Premium Member

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    Is a no men involved origin really a "feminist" one? For that matter is an island full of women really a "feminist" concept?
     
  18. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    And was Feminism even a "thing", back when Wonder Woman was created? What about the Fetischist Fantasy Origin of the character? So, it's really not about "proper" version, it's about a favored version.
     
  19. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. Marston was a feminist (albeit a very unconventional one).
     
  20. Professor Zoom

    Professor Zoom Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not going to respond to most of your post, because quite frankly, it's to long and I started skimming. But, I'll respond to this and one other thing.

    You'll have to show me where I called you backwards regarding anything to do with feminism in Wonder Woman

    I do think you are stuck in your thinking as far as the importance to an aspect of her origin in regards to her standing as a feminist icon. (Which probably has much less to do with actual comic book stories rather than being a long standing female character with strength who doesn't need a man. Because if you think about it, a vast majority of people do not read comics.)

    I understand, or, comprehend your argument just fine. But, it's true, I'm not being very pleasant about it. Comprehension doesn't require it, nor agreement. Don't mistake disagreement for not understanding or not wanting to understand.

    And, yes, I misunderstood, and I thought you hadn't read any of Wonder Woman's solo book. I apologize. I still stand by what I said, I think you are missing out on a great story because an aspect of her origin has changed.


    Yeah, for fuck's sake you do...

    Which pre 52 version is the "proper" version?

    Post-Final Crisis?
    Post-Zero Hour?
    Post-Crisis on Infinite Earths?
    Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth 1? Or Earth 2?
    Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth 2 would be the Golden Age Wonder Woman, the one closest to the original version...


    Again, which is the proper version of Wonder Woman? Those just take into account DC reboots and official retcons, there's still just the shift in creative directions over the years.

    Like Superman and Batman, Wonder Woman has changed over the years. Through reboots and just time. Ultimately, there really ISN'T a "proper" version of Wonder Woman, or Superman, or Batman. Not objectively.


    Yep.

    But, who knows, in ten years time, DC will reboot again, and Wonder Woman's origin just might change again.