Founders and Solids living in Peace?
- Thread starter Kilana2
- Start date
That's risky. If my couch turns out to be a Founder, it means the end of Kilana2. Kilana3 is already lurking.
I'm not sure I can picture them living together peacefully. I think they can manage to live apart peacefully though. A lot of solids are still disturbed by what changelings can do, and the changelings won't magically forget all the pain they've suffered at the hands of the solids. Odo bonding with them in the Great Link could help ease that pain, but I think it would require a lot of time to fully get over it. Since changelings can link with each other, the pain of the individual becomes the pain of the whole. That has got to have a profound effect on the psyche of their race as a whole.
On the other hand, if you realized your couch was a Founder and then behaved normally as to not reveal the Founder's identity, you would be rewarded for your excellent service to the Dominion.
In terms of expansion, only the Bajorans established a colony in the GQ and it was later destroyed. However, Starfleet vessels entered the wormhole far too often, landed on planets and interfered with the local affairs, which only served to convince the Founders that the solids from AQ are pressing into their territory. The Klingons and Vulcans entered it quite often too. What surprises me is that no one seemed to bother about who controlled this territory and how they viewed the presence of AQ races there. The Ferengi were warned that the Dominion was the local power and it was not to be underestimated.
If it is not the sofa, it could be the chair or the table, Quark had the same problem, but if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.
If it is not the sofa, it could be the chair or the table, Quark had the same problem, but if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about.
Our heroes seldom bother to find out who controls the territory in the Alpha Quadrant, too. The basic assumption seems to be that planets that appear to be left to their own devices are left to their own devices, even though every major empire has the means to exert influence there - it's essentially just a question of dibs, and no real harm done if it turns out the Klingons or the Romulans were actually there first and have told the locals to spurn the Feds.
It would be rather out of place for our usual players to assume from the outset that some outside force controls planets that appear to be leading independent lives... The Ferengi, OTOH, seem more informed about how the universe really works. But it's to their advantage not to volunteer that information!
Timo Saloniemi
It would be rather out of place for our usual players to assume from the outset that some outside force controls planets that appear to be leading independent lives... The Ferengi, OTOH, seem more informed about how the universe really works. But it's to their advantage not to volunteer that information!
Timo Saloniemi
Well, AQ and BQ are much more explored and better chartered, they house most of the main powers and the smaller conglomerates, the borders between the players are drawn and guarded and their colonial endeavors are known to their opponents. In fact, DMZs are established between the Federation space and the other big powers’ territory to make sure no one will try to snatch planets from someone else’s sphere of influence. All species paid a heavy price until establishing this status quo. So it is logical to assume that they don’t want to repeat their old mistakes in a new quadrant.
It is true that the Founders are awfully hostile to all solids, especially solids they don’t know, but no one said, “OK, let’s go and find this Dominion and try to talk to them first.” It is not safe to launch a colony or send ships with civilians and traders if the status of the territory is unclear.
Finally, the Dominion simply gave them a list of all destroyed ships and colonies as well as an ultimatum to stop all incursions so the opportunity for diplomatic solution went down the drain and the animosity gradually rose until the actual outbreak of the war.
It is true that the Founders are awfully hostile to all solids, especially solids they don’t know, but no one said, “OK, let’s go and find this Dominion and try to talk to them first.” It is not safe to launch a colony or send ships with civilians and traders if the status of the territory is unclear.
Finally, the Dominion simply gave them a list of all destroyed ships and colonies as well as an ultimatum to stop all incursions so the opportunity for diplomatic solution went down the drain and the animosity gradually rose until the actual outbreak of the war.
...One wonders how many ships and colonies on that list were really destroyed by the Dominion, and how much of this was empty boasting.
I mean, Gamma is a dangerous place on its own right. The Dominion might be one of the least worries for those setting up a colony, as basically every world has its share of dramatically interesting threats. But it's the same in Alpha! No colony is totally safe from the threats of space, not even well within supposed UFP territory.
Timo Saloniemi
I mean, Gamma is a dangerous place on its own right. The Dominion might be one of the least worries for those setting up a colony, as basically every world has its share of dramatically interesting threats. But it's the same in Alpha! No colony is totally safe from the threats of space, not even well within supposed UFP territory.
Timo Saloniemi
Actually, they did - this all happened in The Search, parts 1 & 2. After the Dominion delivered the ultimatum, they sent the Defiant so that they could make contact with the Founders.
Before that, the Dominion was really just a rumour for them. They asked the Dosii and Karemma about how they got in touch with them, and were told that you 'don't get in touch with the Dominion, they get in touch with you'.
If they'd flown around looking for them, there's a good chance what happened to the Odyssey would have happened a lot earlier, too! I don't think the Federation dropped the diplomatic ball on that one, personally, I think it was a case that the Founders were even more xenophobic and hostile than the Cardassians were painted to be and a confrontation was inevitable!
It was too late, the diplomatic efforts should have been made before establishing colonies not after seeing them destroyed. Changelings ‘ xenophobia is much stronger than the animosity existing among various humanoid species. They view all solids as a potential threat. If Odo was sent earlier, before the outbreak of hostilities, probably the conflict could have been kept at the level of a Cold War. Distrust and small provocations but still not a real war.
Establishing a colony is an expensive and risky endeavor, so I don’t think it was wise to bring settlers before being well aware of who the players in GQ were.
Establishing a colony is an expensive and risky endeavor, so I don’t think it was wise to bring settlers before being well aware of who the players in GQ were.
Why should there be any diplomatic effort before there was any knowledge of competing claims? Most of the galaxy appears uncontested - in "Sanctuary", the Federation could quickly point to half a dozen uninhabited Class M worlds the Skreeans could claim as their own.
Factually, the Dominion had no presence anywhere near the Gamma end of the wormhole. They just chose to expand to that direction once discovering the existence of the wormhole - but they had scant resources for such conquest, and for several years were completely unable to even attempt blockading their end of the connection! It would be quite surprising for our heroes to learn of any competing claims, whether factual or facetious, under those circumstances.
Timo Saloniemi
The aim of the diplomatic effort is to prevent bigger complications. The increased traffic through the wormhole only drew the Dominion closer and made them suspicious. They gathered intelligence and realized that many solid races were bound to come and stay. Logically, they felt threatened.
The Federation, the Vulcans and the Klingons knew about the existence of the Dominion but did not deign to investigate it. They did not do their homework. When people move house to a new place, they check the neighborhood, they introduce themselves to their immediate neighbors, they ask the estate agent what kind of people live there, whether it is peaceful area or it is a violent one, how safe it is for bringing up children. Why didn’t the 24th-century humans, who claimed how evolved they were, do the same?
We don’t know where exactly the Dominion territory was and how close it was situated to the wormhole. Unclaimed space exists but still other life forms around this space exist too and if they are hostile this is a threat, even if the planet in question is unclaimed. If our bold explorers had checked what the Dominion was, they would have thought twice before sending colonists and cargo traffic.
I don’t think that contacting the Dominion would make the Founders less suspicious and more hospitable but at least AQ and BQ species could give the Dominion territory a wide berth.
The Federation, the Vulcans and the Klingons knew about the existence of the Dominion but did not deign to investigate it. They did not do their homework. When people move house to a new place, they check the neighborhood, they introduce themselves to their immediate neighbors, they ask the estate agent what kind of people live there, whether it is peaceful area or it is a violent one, how safe it is for bringing up children. Why didn’t the 24th-century humans, who claimed how evolved they were, do the same?
We don’t know where exactly the Dominion territory was and how close it was situated to the wormhole. Unclaimed space exists but still other life forms around this space exist too and if they are hostile this is a threat, even if the planet in question is unclaimed. If our bold explorers had checked what the Dominion was, they would have thought twice before sending colonists and cargo traffic.
I don’t think that contacting the Dominion would make the Founders less suspicious and more hospitable but at least AQ and BQ species could give the Dominion territory a wide berth.
The Federation did try to make contact with the Dominion. The Founders are reclusive and consider themselves above diplomacy and they only make their presence felt when somebody has crossed a line and needs to be destroyed. The Dominion ignored their attempts at diplomacy and made first contact by attacking people.
“Leave me alone” is a position too. Especially when supported by Jem’Hadar. The Federation started actively searching for the Dominion after the ultimatum not before it. They hoped to fly under the radar and confront the GQ species with a fait accompli. It could work if not for the Dominion. Katz's Law: Men and nations will act rationally when all other possibilities have been exhausted.
The Founders are a hateful xenophobic race of conquerers. They signed the peace treaty only because they got their asses handed to them. The Female Changeling knew she was defeated and even then she was happy to commit genocide against the Cardassians. Changelings cannot be trusted. And that goes for Odo too. He almost cost Starfleet the station during the early stages of the war due to the influence of the Female Changeling. In the Great Link being bombarded with anti solid hatred I think he'd soon forget he was ever friendly with other races. The only reason the Female Changeling was captured is because she allowed it to happen. She can escape any time she likes and once she's sure the Dominion are back in action she'll break out. That's if she wasn't executed seconds after she exited the ward room in the last episode. Trial or no trial she was going to be killed for her war crimes.
The Dominion didn't say "Leave me alone". They didn't say anything until Gem'Hadar when they destroyed the Bajoran colony and before then did not say "Hey, no colonies on our side of the wormhole please". And after that the Dominion had basically declared war on the Federation.
The female changeling can't escape any time she wants, all they need to contain her is a forcefield that surrounds the room. Hell, they can surround the room with that device Garak used on Odo. And war or no war the Federation does not believe in capital punishment.
Odo can be trusted more than solids. He made no attempt to deliver the cure to his people until the war was won.
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