Forgotten History blurb

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think I already read it, but two DTI guys flashed me in the face with one of those 'men in black' mindwipe things and made me forget.

*ten seconds later*

Why did I post just now?

 

[CaptainDonovin]

I've already pre-ordered it. Does the concept of a "pre-order" raise alarms with the DTI? I've taken steps to arrange for receipt of something which does not yet exist in the form I've asked for it. Amazon and I peer through the mists of time and perceive events that have not yet to come to pass, and have undertaken actions in preparation. Is this a new front in the Temporal Cold War?

Pre order, how silly. Everyone knows its fine as long as doingsdo doesn't open a temporal quasality loop, then that's a no-no.

What does raise their alarms is if you read the book then go back in time to post a review in TrekLit before it is released. That will at least get you a nastygram.

 

[William Leisner]

I've post-ordered it, even though S&S will have sent me a DRC (delayed reader's copy).

 

[Edit_XYZ]

The federation sure loves to waste opportunities.

So - they had temporal drives since the 23rd century and, instead of perfecting them in order to function properly, they abandon this technology with enormous potential after the first try.
And why in the world would starfleet risk a constitution class ship with a crew of hundreds for the initial testing of such a new technology?

They had genetic engineering for hundreds of years and don't use it - I'm not even talking about making augments, but about treatement of a variety of diseases and yes, lesser enhancements.

They had access to parallel universes and don't use it.
As a couterexample, see Memory Omega, which, despite consisting of only a few tens of thousands of people, gained a technology FAR in advance of the federation's in the same timeframe by travelling to parallel universes.
Memory Omega's success puts the federation to shame under annother aspect, as well - it again shows just how pathetic the federation's security is; apparently, transphasics are very easy to steal, despite the technology to spot a parallel universe duplicate being available since 'Parallels'.


Truly, the federation has a medieval mind-set regarding science.
Everything even a little beyond their science is 'off limits' because it's 'playing god' and must be destroyed - see iconian gateways.

That this federation actually values exploration is a curiosity - or rather, a contradiction inserted by various scenarists and writers into the federation philosophy.

 

[Stoek]

This bit actually confuses me. If he never changed history, how can he be "held up by DTI agents as a cautionary tale for Starfleet recklessness toward history"?

From "Trials and Tribble-ations":

LUCSLY: James T Kirk.
SISKO: The one and only.
LUCSLY: Seventeen separate temporal violations. The biggest file on record.
DULMUR: The man was a menace.

I know where it comes from. It simply makes no sense.

I know where it comes from. It simply makes no sense.

And you've touched on a question that's explored in the book.

Now to be certain I'm looking forward to reading the specifics of the DTI's view of Kirk, I personally don't find it all that mystifying.

Now Christopher can correct me if I'm incorrect (and no doubt will ) but the sense I got from the first DTI novel is that the agency does not like Time Travel itself. They go out of their way not to do it and they really really don't like others doing it. So it's not about whether or not Kirk ever changed the timeline, but rather the fact that he time traveled in the first place.

To put it in a more contemporary perspective, imagine driving your car at a speed of one hundred miles per hour. Do you suppose the officer who pulls you over is going to be terribly mollified if you look at him and say, "But officer, I didn't hit anything."?

 

[Relayer1]

I've post-ordered it, even though S&S will have sent me a DRC (delayed reader's copy).

Amazon UK canceled my pre-order. It's now been re-pre-ordered. I hope it's not pre-re-canceled before it's issued...

 

[Christopher]

Now Christopher can correct me if I'm incorrect (and no doubt will ) but the sense I got from the first DTI novel is that the agency does not like Time Travel itself. They go out of their way not to do it and they really really don't like others doing it. So it's not about whether or not Kirk ever changed the timeline, but rather the fact that he time traveled in the first place.

To put it in a more contemporary perspective, imagine driving your car at a speed of one hundred miles per hour. Do you suppose the officer who pulls you over is going to be terribly mollified if you look at him and say, "But officer, I didn't hit anything."?

Yup, that about sums it up. And since Forgotten History is about the early years of the Federation's dealings with time travel as something they have the potential to do for themselves (since all the time travel in ENT was instigated by groups from the future, and "The Naked Time" is the first time anyone in the UFP time-travelled under their own power), a lot of the story has to do with people in the UFP and Starfleet feeling their way with regard to the potentials, risks, and ethics of the technology, and there's a good deal of discussion about the very issues being raised here.

 

[Thrawn]

The federation sure loves to waste opportunities.

So - they had temporal drives since the 23rd century and, instead of perfecting them in order to function properly, they abandon this technology with enormous potential after the first try.
And why in the world would starfleet risk a constitution class ship with a crew of hundreds for the initial testing of such a new technology?

They had genetic engineering for hundreds of years and don't use it - I'm not even talking about making augments, but about treatement of a variety of diseases and yes, lesser enhancements.

They had access to parallel universes and don't use it.
As a couterexample, see Memory Omega, which, despite consisting of only a few tens of thousands of people, gained a technology FAR in advance of the federation's in the same timeframe by travelling to parallel universes.
Memory Omega's success puts the federation to shame under annother aspect, as well - it again shows just how pathetic the federation's security is; apparently, transphasics are very easy to steal, despite the technology to spot a parallel universe duplicate being available since 'Parallels'.


Truly, the federation has a medieval mind-set regarding science.
Everything even a little beyond their science is 'off limits' because it's 'playing god' and must be destroyed - see iconian gateways.

That this federation actually values exploration is a curiosity - or rather, a contradiction inserted by various scenarists and writers into the federation philosophy.

Hasn't even read it; hates it already.

Open-mindedness for the win.

 

[Sho]

While I agree the post was written in an annoyingly provocative style, it does kind of touch upon something true: Much science fiction does very poorly at thinking through and showing the implications of the availability of the technology it introduces. Frequently technology is introduced that would radically alter the way we all live and/or relate to each other, but somehow it doesn't, because despite there being no great difficulty in using it that one time, it somehow doesn't find widespread general use.

Star Trek tends to solve this conundrum by having characters agree that a technology is too dangerous, or immoral, or unethical to use (and usually ignores why anyone outside the agreement doesn't use it either). On the one hand this is good enough, because it's a basic premise of Star Trek that humanity has evolved to a point where it is indeed capable of making and sticking with such decisions. Plus there is the odd episode that acknowledges this, and dares to investigate this problem. On the other hand, it can indeed still be frustrating at times.

The reality of course is that you simply have to compromise to enable a stable and long-running franchise like this. So you can have TNG's Evolution one week, but you can't go full-blown The Diamond Age on the nanotechnology issue.

 

[Christopher]

So - they had temporal drives since the 23rd century and, instead of perfecting them in order to function properly, they abandon this technology with enormous potential after the first try.
And why in the world would starfleet risk a constitution class ship with a crew of hundreds for the initial testing of such a new technology?

Gee, if only somebody would write a book exploring those very questions...

They had genetic engineering for hundreds of years and don't use it - I'm not even talking about making augments, but about treatement of a variety of diseases and yes, lesser enhancements.

That's incorrect. We know that Federation medicine does employ genetic therapy to cure disease; see "Genesis," where Dr. Crusher uses gene therapy as a routine medical treatment for Barclay (though it goes seriously amiss), and "The Raven" and "Imperfection," where genetic resequencing was used or proposed as a therapy for problems arising from Borg implants in Seven and Icheb. And in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume," Bashir states that "DNA resequencing for any reason other than repairing serious birth defects is illegal" (emphasis added), so it is explicitly legal and used in cases where there's a medical basis for it. (And we know from the Augments trilogy on ENT that in the 22nd century, genetic research was banned even as a treatment for critical illnesses, so clearly the restrictions have loosened by the 24th century -- and we did see the UFP engaging in genetic augmentation research in TNG's "Unnatural Selection" (though that was written before the ban on gengineering was retconned into the series).

They had access to parallel universes and don't use it.

Do they? Access to the Mirror Universe in Kirk's time was a freak event that couldn't be replicated. DS9 introduced a technology for beaming between the Prime and Mirror universes, but there's no indication that it allowed access to any other timelines.

As a couterexample, see Memory Omega, which, despite consisting of only a few tens of thousands of people, gained a technology FAR in advance of the federation's in the same timeframe by travelling to parallel universes.

And we don't know how much theft and other ethical violations they may have committed to obtain those technologies.

That this federation actually values exploration is a curiosity - or rather, a contradiction inserted by various scenarists and writers into the federation philosophy.

You do know, right, that the phrase "To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before" was written before the original series premiered in 1966, right? To the extent that there is a contradiction between the values of exploration and caution in the portrayal of the Federation, you've got it backward about which is the core philosophy and which is the later insertion.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

So - they had temporal drives since the 23rd century and, instead of perfecting them in order to function properly, they abandon this technology with enormous potential after the first try.
And why in the world would starfleet risk a constitution class ship with a crew of hundreds for the initial testing of such a new technology?

Gee, if only somebody would write a book exploring those very questions...

Well then, let us see just how coherent an explanation you will come up with.

They had genetic engineering for hundreds of years and don't use it - I'm not even talking about making augments, but about treatement of a variety of diseases and yes, lesser enhancements.

That's incorrect. We know that Federation medicine does employ genetic therapy to cure disease; see "Genesis," where Dr. Crusher uses gene therapy as a routine medical treatment for Barclay (though it goes seriously amiss), and "The Raven" and "Imperfection," where genetic resequencing was used or proposed as a therapy for problems arising from Borg implants in Seven and Icheb. And in "Doctor Bashir, I Presume," Bashir states that "DNA resequencing for any reason other than repairing serious birth defects is illegal" (emphasis added), so it is explicitly legal and used in cases where there's a medical basis for it. (And we know from the Augments trilogy on ENT that in the 22nd century, genetic research was banned even as a treatment for critical illnesses, so clearly the restrictions have loosened by the 24th century -- and we did see the UFP engaging in genetic augmentation research in TNG's "Unnatural Selection" (though that was written before the ban on gengineering was retconned into the series).

"DNA resequencing for any reason other than repairing serious birth defects is illegal"
This means genetic resequencing is illegal in most cases in which it would be needed (anything that doesn't involve SERIOUS birth defects).

For one thing, it means that, as per federation law, Crusher and the Doctor acted ILLEGALLY in "Genesis", "The Raven" and "Imperfection" - these were NOT serious birth defects-related cases.

They had access to parallel universes and don't use it.

Do they? Access to the Mirror Universe in Kirk's time was a freak event that couldn't be replicated. DS9 introduced a technology for beaming between the Prime and Mirror universes, but there's no indication that it allowed access to any other timelines.

Starting from the incident from "Mirror, Mirror", the mirror universe terran empire/memory omega managed to create the interuniverse teleportation technology.
The federation, despite having vastly more resources than memory omega, failed to do so - it even failed when having the DS9 interuniverse teleporter device. Highly unimpressive.

Alternatively, the federation did manage to create an interuniverse teleporter device, but choose not to use it, despite badly needing new technology.

As a couterexample, see Memory Omega, which, despite consisting of only a few tens of thousands of people, gained a technology FAR in advance of the federation's in the same timeframe by travelling to parallel universes.

And we don't know how much theft and other ethical violations they may have committed to obtain those technologies.

But we do know the results of memory omega's activity and the federation's incompetence:

Memory omega practically single-handedly ended the misery that was the alpha/beta quadrant mirror universe.

The federation managed to utterly fail its citizens, by failing to obtain technologies that could stand up to the borg, despite knowing it'll be coming and despite knowing of quite a few sources of such high technology (shedai data, parallel universes, artifacts gathered by named crews during the various series, etc). Result: 64 BILLON dead; the federation - a second-rate power.

You think Memory omega's activities are 'immoral'? I disagree.
Only the most rigid moral rules - which apply badly to real-world situations (AKA they only mamage to create suffering and more suffering) - can allow one to reach such a conclusion.

That this federation actually values exploration is a curiosity - or rather, a contradiction inserted by various scenarists and writers into the federation philosophy.

You do know, right, that the phrase "To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before" was written before the original series premiered in 1966, right? To the extent that there is a contradiction between the values of exploration and caution in the portrayal of the Federation, you've got it backward about which is the core philosophy and which is the later insertion.

The chronological moment of the insertion does not matter.
The fact is, the federation's dark ages attitude towards scientific/new knowledge is at odds with its penchant for exploration.
And, as various episodes/books made clear, this medieval attitude toward knowledge is deeply ingrained into the federation's psyche.


Sho is partly correct about the reasons these cultural/technological blind-spots were intoduced as part of the federation mind-set.
The other part is - when writing specific episodes/books, the scenarists/writers did not consider such things; they didn't consider such wider implications of what they were establishing.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And why in the world would starfleet risk a constitution class ship with a crew of hundreds for the initial testing of such a new technology?

You've already read and judged the book?

Canonically, we saw Kirk's Enterprise stealing/using a Romulan cloaking device in TOS. Canonically, we saw USS Excelsior fitted with transwarp drive in ST III, until Scotty sabotaged it. Bookwise, we saw the USS Enterprise testing a magical engine upgrade in "The Wounded Sky".

The other part is - when writing specific episodes/books, the scenarists/writers did not consider such things; they didn't consider such wider implications of what they were establishing.

And if they did, fans would complain that Star Trek was no longer "taking risks".

As they did/do.

 

[Stoek]

Now Christopher can correct me if I'm incorrect (and no doubt will ) but the sense I got from the first DTI novel is that the agency does not like Time Travel itself. They go out of their way not to do it and they really really don't like others doing it. So it's not about whether or not Kirk ever changed the timeline, but rather the fact that he time traveled in the first place.

To put it in a more contemporary perspective, imagine driving your car at a speed of one hundred miles per hour. Do you suppose the officer who pulls you over is going to be terribly mollified if you look at him and say, "But officer, I didn't hit anything."?

Yup, that about sums it up. And since Forgotten History is about the early years of the Federation's dealings with time travel as something they have the potential to do for themselves (since all the time travel in ENT was instigated by groups from the future, and "The Naked Time" is the first time anyone in the UFP time-travelled under their own power), a lot of the story has to do with people in the UFP and Starfleet feeling their way with regard to the potentials, risks, and ethics of the technology, and there's a good deal of discussion about the very issues being raised here.

*faux sobs* You had me at "time travel". *L*

But seriously I love time travel, and even more than that I love books that manage to work interesting discussions of various philosophical topics into the narrative and make those discussions matter to the plot and/or characterization. Something that I've found you excel at.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

And why in the world would starfleet risk a constitution class ship with a crew of hundreds for the initial testing of such a new technology?

You've already read and judged the book?

As I said to Christopher, Therin:
"Well then, let us see just how coherent an explanation you will come up with."

The other part is - when writing specific episodes/books, the scenarists/writers did not consider such things; they didn't consider such wider implications of what they were establishing.

And if they did, fans would complain that Star Trek was no longer "taking risks".

As they did/do.

My objection is not about the introduction of the cultural/technological blindspots I mentioned.
Star Trek is, after all, a space opera, not a cyberpunk or transhumanist work - which is why such artistic licenses are necessary, even desirable.

My objection relates to the fact that, apparently, other powers - prominently featured - do not have such blindspots in the slightest degree.
Due to this fact, the federation's blindspots, far from remaining necessary and desirable, turn the federation into an incompetents and suicidal fanatics only club.

 

[Christopher]

"DNA resequencing for any reason other than repairing serious birth defects is illegal"
This means genetic resequencing is illegal in most cases in which it would be needed (anything that doesn't involve SERIOUS birth defects).

For one thing, it means that, as per federation law, Crusher and the Doctor acted ILLEGALLY in "Genesis", "The Raven" and "Imperfection" - these were NOT serious birth defects-related cases.

It's pointless to split hairs. Obviously, the various Star Trek shows were written and produced by different people years apart from each other, people who were working on a tight deadline and didn't have time to make sure every last detail and nuance was perfectly consistent, so there are naturally going to be inconsistencies and differences of interpretation. So excessive literalness is counterproductive and unreasonable. One has to be willing to accept that this is a work of fiction created by many hands and focus more on the overall picture that is collectively created.

You think Memory omega's activities are 'immoral'? I disagree.

I specifically said we don't know what immoral actions they might have committed. I can't understand how "we don't know" can be interpreted as an assertion of definite belief. It's simply raising a question, acknowledging that there is a great deal of uncertainty and that it would therefore be unwise to leap to any conclusions or make simplistic assumptions about who's in the right or wrong.

Especially in service of whatever agenda you seem have against the Federation, which really has nothing to do with what my novel is about, so I'd ask you not to drag this thread off-topic, please.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Christopher

About the genetic engineering ban - without splitting hairs, it's established as forbidden in the federation in all but the most extreme circumstances.

About memory omega - it was presented in enough detail in the mirror universe books.
It is very probable its ethical transgressions were relatively minor - technology theft, not genocide.
Your 'we don't know' refers to small probability hyphoteticals - as such, it's counterproductive.

Especially in service of whatever agenda you seem have against the Federation, which really has nothing to do with what my novel is about, so I'd ask you not to drag this thread off-topic, please.

My 'agenda'?
I would think it is in plain sight, if it can even be called an 'agenda': I expressed my displeasure with certain developments in recent trek lit, which, as per the blurb, 'forgotten history' seemed to continue.

It is you who split the hairs regarding the examples I mentioned from other trek canon/books. I merely responded to your counterarguments.

I agree we should stop getting this thread off-topic, though.

 

[Sci]

I'm sorry, but -- where was it established how Memory Omega developed its advanced technology? I'm afraid I never read Shards and Shadows, but I always assumed Omega's technology was more advanced than 24th Century Federation technology because the 22nd Century Terran Empire had been given an early technological jump-start which Memory Omega had inherited via the U.S.S. Defiant.

"DNA resequencing for any reason other than repairing serious birth defects is illegal"
This means genetic resequencing is illegal in most cases in which it would be needed (anything that doesn't involve SERIOUS birth defects).

For one thing, it means that, as per federation law, Crusher and the Doctor acted ILLEGALLY in "Genesis", "The Raven" and "Imperfection" - these were NOT serious birth defects-related cases.

Or it means that Bashir was misspeaking (which does, after all, sometimes happen in real life moments of heightened emotion), and that, instead of concluding that there's a continuity error or that Crusher, et al, were acting illegally, we should conclude that genetic resequencing is legal for medical treatment of serious illnesses/diseases, and that Bashir specifically was referring to the genetic resequencing of the unborn or children.

Starting from the incident from "Mirror, Mirror", the mirror universe terran empire/memory omega managed to create the interuniverse teleportation technology.

I thought the intentional between-universes beaming technology was something only developed as of DS9 Season Three. Where was it established that the Terran Empire, Terran Republic, or Memory Omega had anything to do with it?

The federation, despite having vastly more resources than memory omega, failed to do so - it even failed when having the DS9 interuniverse teleporter device. Highly unimpressive.

This statement hinges on the premise that all technological advance is linear, occurring according to a pre-set standard, rather than occurring in fits and spurts in different fields and different times for different cultures -- as though developing any given technology means that one must also have developed another set of technologies by the same point, akin to a child who should both know how to write in cursive and multiply by the time he's in third grade.

I reject this premise, and instead posit that a given society might make a laudable advance in one field while not making an advance in another field that another society does make an advance in, and that neither society should be seen as unimpressive because of it.

Alternatively, the federation did manage to create an interuniverse teleporter device, but choose not to use it, despite badly needing new technology.

I'm sorry, but what need does the Federation have to be able to transport into an alternate universe that, so far as it knows, is dominated either by a tyrannical Human empire, or a tyrannical Klingon/Cardassian alliance? What pressing need has the Federation to subject itself to the evils of the Mirror Universe?

Memory omega practically single-handedly ended the misery that was the alpha/beta quadrant mirror universe.

Memory Omega also paved the way for the establishment of the Galactic Commonwealth with the blood of millions upon millions of innocent Trill Symbionts, Cardassians, and Klingons. They built their society on a bed of genocide and murder, and they tried to perpetuate a cycle of endless wars of attrition and bloodshed, with only the intervention of Miles O'Brien to stop them.

Let's not be too quick to laud Memory Omega here.

The federation managed to utterly fail its citizens, by failing to obtain technologies that could stand up to the borg, despite knowing it'll be coming and despite knowing of quite a few sources of such high technology (shedai data, parallel universes, artifacts gathered by named crews during the various series, etc). Result: 64 BILLON dead; the federation - a second-rate power.

Are you ever NOT going to bitch and complain about Star Trek: Destiny? Are you ever NOT going to whine about how it bothers you if the Federation isn't the biggest bully on the playground? Seriously, this has nothing to do with Destiny whatsoever.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Sci

As per Christopher's request, let's keep the thread on topic: 'Forgotten history's' blurb.

PS - I see you're doing a LOT of bitching and whining yourself.

 

[Sho]

(The forum software allows the splitting out of posts into a separate thread -- you could contact one of our esteemed mods and have everything starting with Edit's original post ripped into a second thread to continue there.)

 

[JD]

Starting from the incident from "Mirror, Mirror", the mirror universe terran empire/memory omega managed to create the interuniverse teleportation technology.
The federation, despite having vastly more resources than memory omega, failed to do so - it even failed when having the DS9 interuniverse teleporter device. Highly unimpressive.

Actually MM had nothing to do the the crossover gizmo. It didn't come into play until the second DS9 MU episode, Shattered Mirror. And it was used by Smiley who didn't even know about Memory Omega at the time, so I doubt they had anything to do with it. I'm pretty sure the Federation never actually used it themselves, so as far as I know they didn't have any access to it themselves.