First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine

[TheGodBen]

They just seemed to give up on Bareil. Originally he was going to be Kai, that was his purpose for being on the show, but when they suddenly decided to make Winn Kai instead they had no more use for Bareil. No doubt they could have given him something to do if they had tried, but instead they decided that he was disposable. I find the episode odd in that Kira doesn't play a big role in the story even though she was supposed to be in love with the guy, the final scene of her sitting there talking to him felt weird because of how she wasn't in the episode much.

As for the B-plot, Ron Moore has admitted his mistake in that regard according to the Companion:

Although the producers were happy with both the A-story and the B-story as individual stories, they were not happy with their combination in this episode. According to Ira Steven Behr, after viewing the first set of dailies which included scenes from both stories, the producers were beyond shocked, and a feeling swept through the room like, "What the hell have we done?" The decision to have a grim A-story and a humorous B-story was Ronald D. Moore's, who explains, "I said to everyone, 'This is such a grim episode, we should have a light B-story, maybe let Jake and Nog do some fun stuff.' It sounded great in concept, and I enjoyed writing the scenes, but, man, such a mistake!"

Interestingly, one of the plans they had for this episode was that O'Brien was going to die instead of Bareil. Colm Meaney was doing a lot of films in Ireland at the time and the producers thought he was planning to leave the show to focus on them full-time, so they offered him this plot as a way out. But Meaney didn't want to leave the show so the writers took the concept and set it around Bareil instead.

 

[flemm]

Was he? Can't recall him being popular at all.

So I have read, at least among a segment of the fan base (I did not watch the show on the air). Apparently, there was quite a bit of vocal outcry over his death.

Spoiler: season 6

The sixth season episode Resurrection probably got made in part for fans of Bareil.

I find the episode odd in that Kira doesn't play a big role in the story even though she was supposed to be in love with the guy, the final scene of her sitting there talking to him felt weird because of how she wasn't in the episode much.

Oddly enough, this is one aspect of the episode that I don't really see as a problem. She is involved throughout, and I think her panic at losing Bareil is perhaps our first real glimpse of why this relationship exists in the first place, i.e. Bareil is a healer, Kira needed to be healed. This is something one might infer from early appearances, but is never really explored as such, because the writers at this stage don't seem to be able to explore romantic attachment outside of the one-episode romance format. Never really one of Trek's strengths, to be sure, but it is something that DS9 starts to handle better later on.

I thought Winn's characterization was effective as well, though rather despicable. Basically she and Kira both have selfish reactions to Bareil's predicament, but for different reasons: Winn because she wants to complete the treaty (and acquire prestige thereby), Kira because she loves him.

 

[TheGodBen]

There's a bit in the companion about it:

After this episode aired, the producers received an extremely angry email from a group calling themselves 'The Friends of Vedek Bareil'. The email angrily protested the death of Bareil and enclosed were pictures of a memorial service they had held for him.

I want to see those photos!

 

[Damask]

Interestingly, one of the plans they had for this episode was that O'Brien was going to die instead of Bareil. Colm Meaney was doing a lot of films in Ireland at the time and the producers thought he was planning to leave the show to focus on them full-time, so they offered him this plot as a way out. But Meaney didn't want to leave the show so the writers took the concept and set it around Bareil instead.

Jeez, thankfull they didn't go with that. Meaney is quite the actor and O'Brien is one of the best characters on Star Trek period.

 

[DevilEyes]

Was he? Can't recall him being popular at all.

So I have read, at least among a segment of the fan base (I did not watch the show on the air). Apparently, there was quite a bit of vocal outcry over his death.

Spoiler: season 6

The sixth season episode Resurrection probably got made in part for fans of Bareil.

Spoiler: season 6

This Rene Auberjonois interview seems to confirm that:

According to producer Ron Moore's posts on America Online, the fans played a significant role in the development of Odo in the final seasons, first protesting when the changeling was turned into a human being, then lobbying to pair Kira and Odo as a romantic couple after years of indications that Odo was in love with the first officer.
"There was a huge lobby for Kira and Bareil, and Kira and Dukat, and even Kira and Damar," Auberjonois laughs. "People get passionate. (...)

The cynic in me can see the writers debating:

"OK, so are we going to pair up Odo and Kira? Yes, we'll do it eventually. But first let's throw a bone to the old Kira/Bareil fans... And we'll have Kira have an affair with Dukat... (After all, Odo fucked the Founder, so there's no harm done.) What, Nana is against it? OK, then her mom had an affair with Dukat!"

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Spoiler: Kira

/\ Oh god, Kira and Damar may be the worst idea ever!

 

[flemm]

Spoiler: season 6

"OK, so are we going to pair up Odo and Kira? Yes, we'll do it eventually. But first let's throw a bone to the old Kira/Bareil fans... And we'll have Kira have an affair with Dukat... (After all, Odo fucked the Founder, so there's no harm done.) What, Nana is against it? OK, then her mom had an affair with Dukat!"

Spoiler: later seasons

Kira does seem to have been a popular figure among the "shipper" crowd, and in fact remains so to this day, judging by the few fanfic sites I have perused. Resurrection is a meaningless trifle, but I'm glad Nana Visitor flatout refused the Dukat pairing because it would have been out of character.

Odo and Kira worked out shockingly well given Trek's history with romance, to the point that it seems to have surprised everyone involved, including Auberjonois and Visitor. It's quite entertaining to read reviews written while the show was on the air, such as Tim Lynch or Jammer, because the reaction is always the same (or very similar): unease or outright distaste with His Way, ambivalence for a while, then from Chimera onward, "Wow, it really, really works, whodathunkit?!?!" Mainly we have Echevarria to thank for that, because he dug deep into the why of the relationship and found some very satisfying answers in Chimera that the writers were then able to follow through on in the final arc.

Examining the why of a relationship is something Trek writers generally suck at. With Bareil and Kira, for example, I think the relationship makes sense, but we never really see it explored on screen.

Spoiler: Kira

/\ Oh god, Kira and Damar may be the worst idea ever!

Spoiler: Kira

You say that now but when you have read the Kira/Damar fanfic about them getting busy in Mila's basement, you will come to the realization that it is not the worst idea ever but actually the most stupendously worstest idea from the bottom of the all-time worst idea discount bin

 

[TheGodBen]

Cool, spoilers. I want in!

Spoiler: Kira

/\ Oh god, Kira and Damar may be the worst idea ever!

Spoiler: Kira

You say that now but when you have read the Kira/Damar fanfic about them getting busy in Mila's basement, you will come to the realization that it is not the worst idea ever but actually the most stupendously worstest idea from the bottom of the all-time worst idea discount bin

Spoiler: horrible slash fiction

Even worse than Sisko/Dukat? Because I just did a Search for "Sisko Dukat slash" and have come across a charming story where Dukat rapes Sisko after the events of Waltz. Here's a tasty spoiler:

DUKAT: Beautiful, beautiful, Benjamin, mine, my darling...

 

[flemm]

Spoiler: horrible slash fiction

Even worse than Sisko/Dukat? Because I just did a Search for "Sisko Dukat slash" and have come across a charming story where Dukat rapes Sisko after the events of Waltz. Here's a tasty spoiler:

DUKAT: Beautiful, beautiful, Benjamin, mine, my darling...

Spoiler: horrible fan fic

Please don't drag this thread off topic by shamelessly plugging your fanfic, TheGodBen, there's a sub-forum for that

 

[DevilEyes]

Cool, spoilers. I want in!

Spoiler: Kira

/\ Oh god, Kira and Damar may be the worst idea ever!

Spoiler: Kira

You say that now but when you have read the Kira/Damar fanfic about them getting busy in Mila's basement, you will come to the realization that it is not the worst idea ever but actually the most stupendously worstest idea from the bottom of the all-time worst idea discount bin

Spoiler: horrible slash fiction

Even worse than Sisko/Dukat? Because I just did a Search for "Sisko Dukat slash" and have come across a charming story where Dukat rapes Sisko after the events of Waltz. Here's a tasty spoiler:

DUKAT: Beautiful, beautiful, Benjamin, mine, my darling...

Spoiler: horrible slash and other horrible fanfiction

I've read one where Dukat seduces Sisko on the planet. I didn't even know it was slash till halfway through, it was labeled as an alternative version of Waltz. It did make me laugh. I've read another one where Garak seduces a drunken Dukat.

But that's far from the worst, trust me. After you read a Dukat/Mary Sue romance fanfic, you'll be crying to go back to all the Kira/Dukat porn and the Sisko/Dukat and Garak/Dukat slash.

 

[TheGodBen]

Spoiler: horrible slash fiction

Even worse than Sisko/Dukat? Because I just did a Search for "Sisko Dukat slash" and have come across a charming story where Dukat rapes Sisko after the events of Waltz. Here's a tasty spoiler:

DUKAT: Beautiful, beautiful, Benjamin, mine, my darling...

Spoiler: horrible fan fic

Please don't drag this thread off topic by shamelessly plugging your fanfic, TheGodBen, there's a sub-forum for that

Spoiler: my fan fic

I'd never even dare to write such a thing, I don't know why you'd think I would. If it was me...

Hang on a sec, why am I posting this as a spoiler?

As I was saying, if I had written it then Sisko would have been the one to rape Dukat.

Spoiler: My non-spoiler

Now that's going to really confuse Jimmy Bob.

 

[flemm]

As I was saying, if I had written it then Sisko would have been the one to rape Dukat.

Spoiler: Dukat's fate

Although actually it's the writers that end up raping him post-Waltz

 

[Hober Mallow]

And I noticed that Brooks wore that TNG uniform much better than anyone on TNG.

Much better than Jonathan Frakes wore Brooks' DS9 uniform in "Generations."

 

[Navaros]

Life Support is definitely a top 25 episode. It's an amazing idea and perfectly executed. The cool part of it is not about Bareil, it's about Kai Winn and Kira's idiocy for trusting her, esp. after Kira is already supposed to know Winn tried to kill Bareil earlier...how idiotic does she have to be to trust her with such matters again . As always, Winn is immaculately played.

Bareil was dead weight on the show. He acted like a (barely) animated mannequin. He's right up there with Keiko and Molly O'Brien as one of the worst actors to ever appear on Trek. It's a shame they didn't get rid of him sooner, before he wasted so much screen-time in S2.

After this episode aired, the producers received an extremely angry email from a group calling themselves 'The Friends of Vedek Bareil'. The email angrily protested the death of Bareil and enclosed were pictures of a memorial service they had held for him.

If I was a fan of DS9 at that time and had the producers' email, I would have emailed them to thank them for killing Bareil and requested that they not cast any more mannequin-like actors in the future.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Life Support is an episode that doesn't come to mind as being on a DS9 Best of List. But that's just me.

 

[JRS]

So, according to Bashir, in DS9 universe the "soul" is inside the brain? If it becomes too mechanical, it's just a robot?

Quite odd statement coming from Bashir, who was very facinated about Data And talking about Data..he might have a thing or two to say about the robot thing
I agree that the episode is quite bad..and I never was a big Bareil fan anyway

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Heart of Stone

This was a good Nog episode.

1) the idea of Nog and good episode in one sentence itself is mindblowing

2) it came so soon after the sad fiasco of Life Support

I learned to like Nog thanks to this episode. Probably because I now at least have an idea about his nature. He was somewhat of a caricature "young street thug" before. I really digged how he tried to impress Sisko. And then he's speech about his father chasing profit for his entire life and gaining nothing, trying to break out from the box that ferengi culture forces himself into... I was quite moved by it.

And I yayed a little when Rom supported his son and managed to have at least some sort of backbone to do contrary to his brother's will.

But as an Odo episode? Hmm... well I was thinking when I was going to see them founders again, but Odo's story was just a reminder that he loves Kira and that there are founders out there. I thought that it didn't really contribute anything, other than the writers just making it very clear that Odo loves Kira. And I didn't find the whole mindgame and the presence of a founder very logical or believable.

Odo is currently the only character who exists in a certain epic realm, and it's always cool to watch him... but yeah, I found Odo story to be a waste of time and a miss of potential.

 

[Jimmy Bob]

Destiny

Not impressed.

+ The Cardassian scientists were somewhat interesting and funny, especially all that cultural misunderstandings between them and O'Brien.

+ It's about time for Sisko to be involved in some Bajoran Prophet stuff

- It sucks how they did that. I can't pinpoint it exactly, but something was lacking. It was put on Kira to be the reminder that there is the "OMG! Prophecy of DOOM!", but it was somewhat out of sync with her being. Or at least my impression of it anyway.

- The mystery and dread was a failure. I might have too much of a fantasy background, but I expect my prophecies to have certain standards. There has to be oomph! This "oh I just misinterpreted it, everything turned out well" was just a failure. I guess it was just done by the prophets to remind Sisko, that they do indead are non-linear and awesome by planting information about his ordinary workday some 3000 years ago.

- The guest characters and drama were not that compelling. The third cardassian was just meh. Hey! I just figured out why the prophecy sucked. It had no emotional resonance in the characters. And oomph is in the emotions.

Verdict: Needs more oomph.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

I like Destiny. It was good to see them do something with the Emissary stuff and I liked the Cardassians.

I do not like Heart of Stone. Well, I like the Nog stuff, which really is a turning point for this character, but the Odo plotline feels pointless (not to mention boring) to me. Come on, we already know he loves her! I think this is one of my least favourite episodes, actually, in spite of the redeeming features.

 

[flemm]

Destiny is probably my favorite episode of the season: a subtle, cerebral story with important character elements for Sisko and Kira. There's also just something very poetic and grand about how the main story unfolds. This kind of episode is never going to be a crowd-pleaser, but I'm glad that the DS9 writers did one of these every once in a while for connaisseurs such as myself

It doesn't hurt that, for once in a season full of discordant B-stories, the O'Brien "misinterpretation" subplot blends seamlessly with the main story.

Heart of Stone has a solid B-story and a few good character moments for Odo (particularly the background about how he got his name), but the situation is so hopelessly contrived and convoluted that the good material ends up feeling inconsequential. A misfire.