"First Contact" - The rape of Riker

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by Ragitsu, Jun 26, 2022.

  1. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Location:
    My mansion on Qo'noS
    Well I didn't say or imply that the artist was obligated to do anything like that. There's useful commentary out there from film/art/literature critics who had nothing to do with the creation of the work, that can help with approaching a work that may be harder to understand for whatever reason.

    Kor
     
  2. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    There are artists (in this case, the scriptwriters) that are still alive and some of them will even answer questions both pertaining to their thought processes at the time and as to what the then-contemporary zeitgeists were like.
     
    Richard S. Aaaargh! likes this.
  3. Thread Creep

    Thread Creep Watching you sleep Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    AKA Serveaux
    Well, the sole author of the final version of this script has passed away, rest his soul. You might hunt up Ron Moore or Joe Menosky for their takes, as they collaborated on the second draft. I answered as best I could a couple of pages ago; unfortunately the gist of it was "That got written by someone else after I turned in my version." That's not a dodge; TBH, it's a little bit of a drag when people say nice things about that scene - and yes, they do - and I tell them "thanks, but I didn't write it." If I had, I'd take credit and responsibility for it. The two go together.
     
  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Random Q for you, Serveaux: what is the origin of your avatar? That being vaguely reminds me of the proto-Klingon from the TNG episode "Genesis".

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Thread Creep

    Thread Creep Watching you sleep Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    AKA Serveaux
    It's the "Thetan creature" from the Outer Limits episode "The Architects of Fear."
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  6. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    Speaking of Genesis...say wouldn't it have been way more fun if Worf had "devolved" into some small, meek prey animal, and Troi had "devolved" into some sort of ferocious Betazed raptor thing?
     
  7. Vincent van Ghoul

    Vincent van Ghoul Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Better episode.
     
  8. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2021
    Remember that time when Harry Kim was constantly badgered by a nakedly aggressive female Klingon interested in sex? She was a larger and stronger being.
     
    trekshark likes this.
  9. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    And then she eats everyone else on the ship. Make THAT the series finale!

    Lucky he had Neelix watching his back.

    Add that to the LONG list of Harry Kim's romantic misadventures.

    Maybe that could have been Season 8 of Voyager... the ship gets home and Harry gets reassigned (and promoted a couple grades, because it was already stupid that he hadn't been). And we spend the whole year watching one romance of the week after another catastrophically fail. Starting with Libby, who moved on the way Mark did. The series finale has him shave his head, move to Delta, and take a vow of celibacy.
     
    Richard S. Aaaargh! likes this.
  10. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    Well, imagine that monster Worf became, but telepathic, knowing the intentions of his candidate victims. None would have had a chance - except for Data.
     
    Orphalesion likes this.
  11. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    Who is unfortunately now a Commodore 64.
     
  12. Herbert

    Herbert Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2017
    Location:
    Yeoman Rand's Quarters
    This is a public apology to @Ragitsu for my comments earlier in this thread. Regardless of what I feel about the topic, it was no excuse to say what I said. It was out of line and I apologize.
     
  13. Orphalesion

    Orphalesion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    Is that about my idea to switch Troi and Worf's "devolutions"?
    In that case, I just want to clarify that didn't mean it in any " aggressive female pursues passive male" way.
    Just that I think it would have been more subversive to have Picard and Data find Worf, the brave warrior, as a meek creature from somewhere in the Klingon line of evolution, hiding in his quarters, while they have to run from Troi, the sweet caregiver, who as become some sort of raptor creature and, as @at Quark's suggests, stalks them through the ship using her telepathy.
    (though personally I think telepathy came a lot later in the Betazoid evolution, probably after evolving sapience. I don't think the dinosaurs on Betazed were telepathic, but well...it's not like the episode makes much sense to begin with ;))
     
    Ragitsu likes this.
  14. Maurice

    Maurice FACT TREKKING across the universe... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
    Ragitsu likes this.
  15. at Quark's

    at Quark's Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    I actually would think the same (that Betazoid telepathy would probably be a quite recent evolutionary development). But that's only a minor obstacle to getting to imagine a telepathic version of that raptor creature anyway :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
    Orphalesion likes this.
  16. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    It feels different because of our knowledge of Riker that he likes having sex with strange aliens.

    But to your point, yes, it is a major double standard that this can be treated for laughs only because the victim happens to be male.
     
  17. MarkusTay

    MarkusTay Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 28, 2022
    Kim's misadventures on the 'harem planet' (just rewatched that one a few days ago) made me think they remade the 'death by Snoo-Snoo' Futurama episode (or did ST do it first? Either way, Futurama did the 'play man-rape for laughs' thing). I once read that 'man rape' is the worlds most under-reported crime. There are several reasons for that (there was even an excellent Peter Sellers movie with that as the main premise - no-one believed him). Also, in most cases, its another man doing the... thing. Men will NOT report that. And it happens more often than people think.

    Poor Ensign Kim - he just can't catch a break. But does he deserve one? He left a hotty that truly loved him back on Earth to further his career, and that one 'might have been' episode proved he would have an even more rewarding (successful?) career had he just stayed home. Of course, Paris would never have gotten to make squishy fish-babies with the Captain, so there's that.

    And yeah, I would have to agree there is a huge double-standard, but being very old, I've grown accustomed to it. Men being forced into sexual situations is always played for comedy, which is terrible. But here's a question for all you enlightened people - would it have been worse/the same if it had been Sulu, knowing what we know now (and is firmly established in the Kelven timeline canon)? If some woman had done that to a man who was Gay? Does that make it even worse than what happened to Riker? It shouldn't. At least not legally. But it does, because now you haven't only violated a person's physical body, you've violated their convictions/lifestyle.
     
  18. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2020
    The definition has certainly expanded. I remember a popular movie in the 80's where a character had consensual sex with a woman by "borrowing" her boyfriend's costume. Nowadays, that's considered rape by deception. Certainly, that could be done with a male, too, whether the guy was gay or straight.

    There are other ways, but not sure I want to get into X-rated details. Matter of fact, I'm sure I don't want to.
     
  19. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    It was just a comedic standard in the 90s that men want to have sex with everything all the time. It’s not great but by the standards of 1990s television it was pretty tame, given our knowledge of Riker than he would have probably done it of his own volition too. (And our knowledge of 2360s culture than sex was treated as something casual.)

    You could also argue he was raped in The Host.
     
  20. Vincent van Ghoul

    Vincent van Ghoul Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    fireproof78
    Yes, the same.