• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a while

Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

^^ However, the commercialization of space travel will create advances and an infrastructure that will greatly reduce the cost of access to space, and that will change everything.

The "space tourism industry" will cease to exist minutes after one of those rockets fails and wipes out its complement of mega-wealthy passengers.
Exactly. Just like the Titanic put an end to the passenger ship industry.

Much as I enjoyed the witty reply I think the fact that making ship travel safer is much easier than making space travel safer is quite intuitive for most people.
It's still just a matter of degree. Ships sink, trains derail, planes fall out of the sky, space shuttles explode, zillions of cars crash every year, all involving the mega-rich or the mega-famous from time to time; it has never brought transportation to a standstill and it never will.

The shuttle program was enormously expensive and when you compare it to free market space tourist initiatives like what Virgin Galactic is trying to do it makes little if any sense to continue to launch it.

Because Virgin Galactic will be hauling up and repairing 25,000 lb. satellites, conducting extensive microgravity experiments, assembling and repairing space stations, and not just taking a few rich people up on brief suborbital flights, right? :rolleyes:

They're not comparable, at all.
Not now, but an independent company like Virgin could very well be handling these functions much more economically than NASA does, which is the whole point of supporting these entrepreneurs.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

^^ Hopefully never, because that's exactly where the future of space travel is. Now that the Shuttle Program is done, what NASA needs to do is throw some subsidies at private entrepreneurs who won't spend a hundred times what needs to be spent.

Adios, Space Shuttle.
Bye.gif

Virgin Galactic is a carnival ride that fails to even achieve orbit. If you want to follow the future of space travel then follow SpaceX and their Falcon 9.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

The shuttle program was enormously expensive and when you compare it to free market space tourist initiatives like what Virgin Galactic is trying to do it makes little if any sense to continue to launch it.

Because Virgin Galactic will be hauling up and repairing 25,000 lb. satellites, conducting extensive microgravity experiments, assembling and repairing space stations, and not just taking a few rich people up on brief suborbital flights, right? :rolleyes:

They're not comparable, at all.

Not now, but an independent company like Virgin could very well be handling these functions much more economically than NASA does, which is the whole point of supporting these entrepreneurs.

I have no problem supporting private space ventures. My issue was purely with his erroneous suggestion that it doesn't make sense to have a manned space launch system on par with the shuttle because Virgin Galactic fills that niche, which is ridiculous. Virgin Galactic neither tries to or wants to perform shuttle-type duties, nor would any private venture be expected to do so in any reasonable timeframe.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

The problem with Space is that there's nothing profitable out there yet, beyond sticking objects (not people) into various Earth orbits. That's not to say it can't be insanely profitable in the future, but it's not looking likely in the medium-term. So no-one really needs to put people up there right now. Governments have better things to do, and to spend money on, and frankly I don't blame them in the slightest for deprioritising space exploration.

All the great explorations of the past have been financially driven, with science second at best: Columbus discovered America while trying to break a trade route monopoly, Livingstone explored the heart of Africa with the word Commerce as a prominent part of his personal motto, Lewis & Clark had clear Asian and resource commercial goals to their expedition, Marco Polo was a merchant... I could go on, but the point is obvious: we haven't found anyone to trade with in space, and it currently costs more to extract resources from extraterrestial locations than it does to do so on Earth.

I don't think so.. there's tons of stuff being researched only in space where no gravity or microgravity is very important to the result and in long term leads to new products here on earth.. one of the best known examples is Teflon which originated in the space program. It is very vital to our scientific progress and thankfully there's still the ISS even if the (outdated and failing) shuttles are being decommissioned.

I think prices would be quite lower if shuttles were being designed now with all the experience gained and newer materials available but it would still be a huge investment. It is a hard sell to the people now where many are struggling to put regular meals on the table and keeping their roof because the benefits of a shuttle program are very long term and not easily seen.

I just hope they jumpstart it before all those experienced engineers and astronauts retire and they have to fall back on records and start over from scratch.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

^^ Hopefully never, because that's exactly where the future of space travel is. Now that the Shuttle Program is done, what NASA needs to do is throw some subsidies at private entrepreneurs who won't spend a hundred times what needs to be spent.

Adios, Space Shuttle.
Bye.gif

Virgin Galactic is a carnival ride that fails to even achieve orbit. If you want to follow the future of space travel then follow SpaceX and their Falcon 9.
You mean "private entrepreneurs?" ;)

I have no problem supporting private space ventures. My issue was purely with his erroneous suggestion that it doesn't make sense to have a manned space launch system on par with the shuttle because Virgin Galactic fills that niche, which is ridiculous. Virgin Galactic neither tries to or wants to perform shuttle-type duties, nor would any private venture be expected to do so in any reasonable timeframe.
Again, the idea is that private entrepreneurs can be innovative enough to do these things more cost-effectively. And I disagree about the reasonable timeframe; I think it's possible for it to happen relatively quickly.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

The shuttle program was enormously expensive and when you compare it to free market space tourist initiatives like what Virgin Galactic is trying to do it makes little if any sense to continue to launch it.

The "space tourism industry" will cease to exist minutes after one of those rockets fails and wipes out its complement of mega-wealthy passengers.
Exactly. Just like the Titanic put an end to the passenger ship industry.

[sarcasm]The rich weren't wiped out. The dirty poor people were.[/sarcasm] :p
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

The problem with Space is that there's nothing profitable out there yet, beyond sticking objects (not people) into various Earth orbits. That's not to say it can't be insanely profitable in the future, but it's not looking likely in the medium-term.

I don't think so.. there's tons of stuff being researched only in space where no gravity or microgravity is very important to the result and in long term leads to new products here on earth.. one of the best known examples is Teflon which originated in the space program. It is very vital to our scientific progress and thankfully there's still the ISS even if the (outdated and failing) shuttles are being decommissioned.

Actually, the idea that Teflon was created because of the space programme is a complete urban myth.

Teflon was invented decades before the space programme, quite accidentally, as part of experiments into CFC refridgerants (you know, those nasty ozone-busting chemicals). However, it was later used widely within the space programme, that is true, and the glamour of close association with that programme was indeed used in advertising to sell products with Teflon. That so many people believe Teflon was created by the space programme is a credit to DuPont's PR department.

But leaving that correction aside, I would of course agree that technological advances involved in developing space travel can then be profitable, just as the technological advances of, say, Formula 1 racing, eventually filter down to production saloons. But these are incidental by-products, not reasons for any investor to put money into developing space travel itself.

[A major disaster] has never brought transportation to a standstill and it never will.

Quite true. However, that is primarily because people still needed to get to the destination, for economic reasons, so the risk was worth it. This doesn't apply to space travel, in its current model.

Suborbital tourism is unlikely to result in, say, orbital hotels, thus creating a destination worth visiting and worth investing in.

In time, I do think the economics will change, but for now (and IMO for at least 25+ years), I can't really see there being a major difference. You need to either find a useful extraterrestial mineral that cannot be obtained on Earth more cheaply, or find aliens to trade with, or require terraforming/colonisation of an off-planet home to replace a degraded Earth, or have an active security risk requiring occupation of space.

The last of these is probably the most likely within the medium term, but even that I feel is a fairly remote possibility.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

Because Virgin Galactic will be hauling up and repairing 25,000 lb. satellites, conducting extensive microgravity experiments, assembling and repairing space stations, and not just taking a few rich people up on brief suborbital flights, right? :rolleyes:

They're not comparable, at all.
Not now, but an independent company like Virgin could very well be handling these functions much more economically than NASA does, which is the whole point of supporting these entrepreneurs.

Or, for-profit enterprise will receive government funding to develop the tech to achieve launches in a cost-effective manner, and the government will then buy or lease that tech from them for manned exploration (or get rights to it as a condition of the R & D grant), while contracting out the day-to-day research and maintenance operations to those for-profit enterprises (which may or may not end up being more economically feasible, given experiences with the cost of contracting military operation to private companies...).
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

The problem with Space is that there's nothing profitable out there yet

You wouldn't say that if you had been contacted by agents of the Trinanium Empire, as I have.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

[A major disaster] has never brought transportation to a standstill and it never will.

Quite true. However, that is primarily because people still needed to get to the destination, for economic reasons, so the risk was worth it. This doesn't apply to space travel, in its current model.

Suborbital tourism is unlikely to result in, say, orbital hotels, thus creating a destination worth visiting and worth investing in.
I wouldn't be too sure. Such things are in development now. Eventually, the necessary technology and expertise will reach critical mass, as it has before-- such as with aviation and home computers-- and I don't think it will be greater than 25 years.

Because Virgin Galactic will be hauling up and repairing 25,000 lb. satellites, conducting extensive microgravity experiments, assembling and repairing space stations, and not just taking a few rich people up on brief suborbital flights, right? :rolleyes:

They're not comparable, at all.
Not now, but an independent company like Virgin could very well be handling these functions much more economically than NASA does, which is the whole point of supporting these entrepreneurs.

Or, for-profit enterprise will receive government funding to develop the tech to achieve launches in a cost-effective manner, and the government will then buy or lease that tech from them for manned exploration (or get rights to it as a condition of the R & D grant), while contracting out the day-to-day research and maintenance operations to those for-profit enterprises (which may or may not end up being more economically feasible, given experiences with the cost of contracting military operation to private companies...).
Exactly. That's what I meant when I said subsidy, earlier.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

Exactly. Just like the Titanic put an end to the passenger ship industry.

Much as I enjoyed the witty reply I think the fact that making ship travel safer is much easier than making space travel safer is quite intuitive for most people.

I missed seeing the witty reply...just caught the faulty analogy and a logical misfire of the kind that demonstrates, once again, that folks steeped in the dubious fictive reasoning of sci-fi are not more intelligent than the general run of humanity. They're willing to buy into a lot of nonsense that's self-evident to them from a lifetime of reading fantasies that possess a certain internal story logic but aren't actually founded upon an understanding of what motivates either corporate exploration or commerce itself. This is why the "future of mankind in space" that science fiction fans foresaw as well nigh inevitable in 1969 not only never came to pass but was really never in the cards at all.

A lot of folks went down in steerage when Titanic sank, as James Cameron made so much money reminding us. Reason was, of course, that shipping is one of a number of transportation industries that's fueled by a real demand for passage and a need for people of all stations and income levels to get from one place to another rather than being entirely an indulgence for the very wealthy.

There is no "passenger industry" or "transportation industry" associated with launching wealthy people into space, because there's neither an economic need nor any real demand. It's an expensive stunt, a way for a few people with a great deal of excess money to indulge themselves by having an "experience" that they can both savor and boast about. That completely frivolous "demand" will vanish amid a fireball of lawsuits as soon as one of these toys is lost in the air. Depend upon it.
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

^^ But despite your desperate, adolescent need to feel superior to everyone else, Human history is full of people climbing mountains, crossing oceans, exploring caves and doing all the other things that the spirit of curiosity and adventure compels them to do. There will be accidents associated with commercial space travel-- there already have been-- and it will stop nothing. In other words: Wrong again. :rommie:
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

Has anyone bothered to point out to DT that the US will continue to send astronauts to the ISS for the forseeable future?
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

Weren't the Chinese planning to put people on the Moon by 2017 or something? Are they still working on that?
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

Their immediate goal seems to be building a space station, initially Salyut sized but then eventually adding onto it to create a Mir sized one. I doubt they can/will simultaneously devote any serious resources to a manned Moon mission.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_921-2
 
Re: Final shuttle goes up - US manned missions to space over for a whi

Well, they seem to have the governmental focus that's necessary to get this kind of thing done.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top