Fifth Movie

[Goji]

The uneasy relationship between Vulcans and humans, and how that extended to the microcosm of Archer and T'Pol, was one of the things I found most interesting on Enterprise.

I don't hate Tuvok. His loss of control and subsequent strangling of Holo-Neelix in "Meld" is one of my favorites scenes on that series. But he was mostly just there, especially after Seven of Nine came in and he turned into Mr. "Shields Down to X Percent" and little else.

That was him, wasn't it? Man it's been a while since I've tried to watch Voyager.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Seven's arrival on the show is one of the things that killed my love of Voyager. Don't get me wrong, the character is interesting, and Jeri Ryan did a great job of making what was quite obviously designed to be a sexy ratings booster into a quality part of the crew and a sympathetic individual.

But the fact that for at least a season it seemed like every single episode was entirely devoted to Seven of Nine upset me. I liked all the core characters on Voyager (except for Harry), and Seven sucked up so much of their airtime it felt like their development was frozen forever.

 

[Mudd]

Yes, that's why it sunk as far as ratings went. But it sunk even more with the actual Trekkie viewing population because its producers had the mentality of a college fratboy.

Meh, same producers as the previous shows. You're saying that an American network television series found disfavor with the public for...what, some kind of general sexual crudity? That's going to be a hard sell without data. Some trekkies bitching on the Internet isn't much to start with.

Blalock's T'Pol remains the only Vulcan character other than Spock, in his several incarnations, that I find at all interesting. It looked to me as if the writers of Enterprise just studied how Vulcans were really portrayed on TOS - specifically, "Amok Time" and "Journey To Babel" - and worked from that, ignoring fanon and the conceptual drift that occurred throughout modern Trek. Anothe reason that I liked the series so muc.

 

[JesterFace]

A lot of talk about couples...

Wasn't Picard and Kamala a cute couple that worked naturally.

 

[Long Syntax]

Blalock's T'Pol remains the only Vulcan character other than Spock, in his several incarnations, that I find at all interesting. It looked to me as if the writers of Enterprise just studied how Vulcans were really portrayed on TOS - specifically, "Amok Time" and "Journey To Babel" - and worked from that, ignoring fanon and the conceptual drift that occurred throughout modern Trek. Anothe reason that I liked the series so muc.

^This

 

[BillJ]

I always felt like ENT had this fundamental misconception that Vulcans were just really repressed and passive-aggressive humans --

But that's exactly what they were.

Blalock's T'Pol remains the only Vulcan character other than Spock, in his several incarnations, that I find at all interesting. It looked to me as if the writers of Enterprise just studied how Vulcans were really portrayed on TOS - specifically, "Amok Time" and "Journey To Babel" - and worked from that, ignoring fanon and the conceptual drift that occurred throughout modern Trek. Anothe reason that I liked the series so muc.

It did seem to nail the Vulcans in a way the other series didn't. Outside of Captain Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".

 

[Kor]

Yes, we tend to romanticize the Vulcans and forget that in TOS (and TAS), they were portrayed as petty, argumentative and disdainful of outsiders. They did not all behave like Spock.

Spock was the noblest in character, but he was half Vulcan... Perhaps an example of overcompensation.

Kor

 

[TheSubCommander]

I find it striking that you look at Blalock and Ryan and conclude that Ryan is the one who lacked acting talent. You're got mirror-universe cred for days.

It's all relative and through the lens of Star Trek. I thought Blalock gave the better performance as T'Pol than Ryan did as Seven.

I've seen very little of either outside of their Trek roles.

Better?

While I liked both characters, I think I can see what you are saying there. Jeri Ryan tried to play Seven as cold and emotionless, at least in her earlier seasons, as a Borg should be. However, every time she did, it sounded more like she was angry and passive aggressive. And I can see how that can get under someone's skin.

All this Tuvok hate... Y'all should be ashamed of yourselves.

First actor (as a series regular) to portray a 100% Vulcan - and Tim Russ did it with dignity, sensitivity, and authenticity. Tuvok was the best full Vulcan ever portrayed on Star Trek.

Yeah, I don't understand the Tuvok hate, either. I personally like Tuvok, and I think as far as Vulcan characters go, he ranks pretty high for me. Spock is my all time favorite Vulcan, with Sarek at number two. As for number three, it's hard for me to decide between Tuvok and T'Pol.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I don't hate Tuvok. Is Tuvok hate really a thing?
I just found him a bit dull. I'm pretty sure I never said I hate him.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I don't hate Tuvok. Is Tuvok hate really a thing?
I just found him a bit dull. I'm pretty sure I never said I hate him.

It's hyperbole, or street slang, or something.

Going back to a point Dennis made about T'Pol... saying something like

It looked to me as if the writers of Enterprise just studied how Vulcans were really portrayed on TOS - specifically, "Amok Time" and "Journey To Babel" - and worked from that, ignoring fanon and the conceptual drift that occurred throughout modern Trek.

feels too much like an "original intent" argument. "Well that's the way Gene wanted it - and that's alright by me!"
It is impossible to think that the overall concept of Vulcans wouldn't be filtered and modified by the hundreds of different creative contributors to Trek, and those contributions changed the fundamental understanding of the species - and in my opinion that was a positive thing.

I was disappointed by the notion that the Vulcans were in fact scheming little emotionally repressed sneaks that were secretly being manipulated by Romulans and "bad" individuals in their society, and it took the heroic actions of - among others -Vulcan who got in touch with her feelings and a human starship captain to save them from themselves.
TNG already had done the "humans are so awesome that they can help correct the political system of an entire race" routine, and compounded with the fact that the Vulcans were portrayed as holding back the progress of the human race - who again are completely awesome - that tired retread just added to the tedium of ENT.

 

[Squiggy]

As an aside...

I keep reading this as "Filth Movie"...which would be awesome.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The TOS version of Vulcans focused mainly on the unemotional part, which is why Spock was such an interesting character. Every now and then he lost it, but a good 85% of the time he was always cool, logical, unemotional.

That's the trick I've heard. You have to play a Vulcan who doesn't express emotions, but still have a likeable personality.

The worse Vulcan I've ever seen on Trek is a DS9 episode Field of Fire. I mean worse as in scary. He was as cold as ice.

I like Tuvok because he would slip in sarcastic remarks while still being a pure Vulcan. He's so underrated. There was a Tuvok/Neelix dynamic that Trekdom missed.


Re: a fifth movie;

One problem with the TNG movies (besides the actual stories) is that they kept the crew together too long. Same old crew, same old jobs.

Break them up, have them at other posts, and reunite them. It would be something different, for a change.

And they always got along. No conflict, except for the minor scrapes that are forgotten by the end of the movie. It would be interesting if after separated, you find that the crew had some gripes with each other.

They started to do this in Nemesis, but it was a bit too late.

And finally, after Generations, the other crew members only had bit parts. They were seriously underused.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, we tend to romanticize the Vulcans and forget that in TOS (and TAS), they were portrayed as petty, argumentative and disdainful of outsiders. They did not all behave like Spock.

Spock was the noblest in character, but he was half Vulcan... Perhaps an example of overcompensation.

Kor

Yeah. Like Worf, Spock was trying to be an idealized Vulcan.

feels too much like an "original intent" argument. "Well that's the way Gene wanted it - and that's alright by me!"
It is impossible to think that the overall concept of Vulcans wouldn't be filtered and modified by the hundreds of different creative contributors to Trek, and those contributions changed the fundamental understanding of the species - and in my opinion that was a positive thing.

Well, we're not dealing with "intent", we're dealing with what was actually put on screen. Which should be the baseline for how things are dealt with going forward. Kolinahr as a practice would seem to indicate most Vulcans are emotional to some degree.

Besides, I'm not sure emotionless Vulcans would be all that interesting.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Going back to a point Dennis made about T'Pol... saying something like

It looked to me as if the writers of Enterprise just studied how Vulcans were really portrayed on TOS - specifically, "Amok Time" and "Journey To Babel" - and worked from that, ignoring fanon and the conceptual drift that occurred throughout modern Trek.

feels too much like an "original intent" argument. "Well that's the way Gene wanted it - and that's alright by me!"
It is impossible to think that the overall concept of Vulcans wouldn't be filtered and modified by the hundreds of different creative contributors to Trek, and those contributions changed the fundamental understanding of the species - and in my opinion that was a positive thing.

I don't really give a damn what Gene wanted. I just care about entertaining and/or engaging television. And T'Pol's "flawed Vulcan" was just a lot more interesting and fun to watch than Tuvok's very vulcan Vulcan.

 

[BigJake]

Well, I don't really see what's all that similar about ENT Vulcans and TOS Vulcans anyway; most of our exposure to the latter was Spock and those directly connected to him, all of whom strike me as considerably more convincingly alien than (and more similar to Tim Russ' work than) ENT's Vulcans. Whatever charm Blalock brought to the role that Em and Dennis are seeing is just lost on me, I guess, since she just seemed stiff to me; but so it goes.

It would be interesting to do some side-by-side comparisons of this sort of thing.

 

[{ Emilia }]

This is so scary. We're Trekkies talking about Trek on the internet and we're... mildly disagreeing over something while being very civil and relaxed.

What the hell is wrong with us?

 

[JesterFace]

This is so scary. We're Trekkies talking about Trek on the internet and we're... mildly disagreeing over something while being very civil and relaxed.

What the hell is wrong with us?

What I like about this place is that I can say how I really feel about certain things and I'm not instantly being told I'm wrong and verbally attacked, called with all sorts of names.

Other forums that I usually visit are metal music based and there you can really be told how wrong you are if your opinion is slightly different than what someone else is saying... Different kinds on people the Trekkies and metalheads... but... I'm both in a way, what?

 

[BillJ]

Different kinds on people the Trekkies and metalheads... but... I'm both in a way, what?

Not different at all. The only difference is this forum administration enforces a policy of being decent to one another.

Check out Facebook or the old Star Trek . com boards.

 

[TheSubCommander]

I don't hate Tuvok. Is Tuvok hate really a thing?
I just found him a bit dull. I'm pretty sure I never said I hate him.

I wasn't addressing you specifically.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yes, we tend to romanticize the Vulcans and forget that in TOS (and TAS), they were portrayed as petty, argumentative and disdainful of outsiders. They did not all behave like Spock.

Spock was the noblest in character, but he was half Vulcan... Perhaps an example of overcompensation.

Kor

Agreed. People tend to idealize the Vulcans, possibly because we all admire Spock so much, but they were never meant to be role models for humanity.

Again, look at "Amok Time" which was the first time we ever saw a Vulcan besides Spock. T'Pring was easily as sneaky and underhanded as any Vulcan ever seen on ENTERPRISE. And then there's "Journey to Babel": Any father and son who don't speak to each for YEARS because of a family quarrel are more dysfunctional than logical . . ..

The best and most interesting Vulcan characters: Spock, Sarek, Saavik (Kirstie Alley), Valeris, T'Pol--are the ones who are seething with repressed emotions beneath their oh-so-stoic facades.

 

[BigJake]

Well in that sense I don't think there was a point in any series where Vulcans were portrayed as without flaws. We mostly encounter Vulcan characters when something is going wrong for them or for Vulcan or both. Still, the point of Vulcan reserve, when it's used well, is that it makes them alien characters who don't react in ways that humans would expect to emotional situations, whether they're "seething under the surface" or not (as I guess Blalock was supposed to be trying to do with T'Pol). The Vulcans of ENT lacked anything like this dynamic often enough for people to notice and remark on it and make the producers want to "fix" it*. Conflating T'Pring's personal (and quite logical in its way, as Spock points out) scheming with the storylines of ENT doesn't really make much sense to me.

(* Not to mention the degree of sneakiness and irrationality involved in the Vulcan-Andorian war plot in ENT went beyond just their "not being ideal" to their becoming unrecognizable -- hence the need for them to re-receive the Ways of Surak as sloppy seconds from Scott Bakula... ugh. )