Ezri and Aventine <POTENTIAL SPOILERS>

[mattburgess]

I didn't think Ezri (or the crew of the Aventine) stood out as being particularly interesting in Destiny, and in no way saw them as deserving of their own series (which is what I'm told is happening).

Currently reading Mission Gamma #2: This Gray Spirit, Ezri comes off as being really bad at command: She keeps shouting at Shar, when a reasonable conversation will do. She feels the need to have complete control over all of "her" officers' actions, and she laid into Shar for thinking for himself and exploring other avenues of a problem (which I'm certain she has done before, to the benefit of DS9).

If I didn't already know that she makes it to Captaincy, I would have put good money that she wouldn't cut it in the big chair.

Any and all comments appreciated.

Also, can anyone tell me why we need another lit series about a ship exploring space during the same period of time? Next Gen, Titan, New Frontier, Voyager, (are the SCE books still going?) and now Aventine as well? Seems a bit much. Purely personal opinion, but I don't think I'll be able to invest my interest in a whole new crew on top of all the others. I'm already having difficulty remembering who serves on what ship.
Alternatively, does anyone know how this series is going to stand out from the others in order to be memorable and deserving of its own series?

 

[Christopher]

I didn't think Ezri (or the crew of the Aventine) stood out as being particularly interesting in Destiny, and in no way saw them as deserving of their own series (which is what I'm told is happening).

Then you've been told wrong. They're not getting their own series. The Aventine crew will be the focus of one of the four novels in the Typhon Pact miniseries. Nothing has been announced beyond that. One book does not a series make.

Currently reading Mission Gamma #2: This Gray Spirit, Ezri comes off as being really bad at command...

More than four and a half years before she becomes a captain. You can learn a lot in that time.

If I didn't already know that she makes it to Captaincy, I would have put good money that she wouldn't cut it in the big chair.

Really? You've never before seen a story where someone does a job badly when they're just starting out, but learns to do it better with practice and eventually becomes quite good at it? I daresay that most stories about learning new skills follow that pattern. So why you'd assume she's doomed to perpetual incompetence just because she made some mistakes very, very early in her learning process is bewildering to me.

 

[mattburgess]

Well sure, but you can't learn just anything you want, and leadership is an exceptionally hard thing to learn (in the real world). Generally speaking, good leadership skills are something you're born with.

 

[PaulSimpson]

Well sure, but you can't learn just anything you want, and leadership is an exceptionally hard thing to learn (in the real world). Generally speaking, good leadership skills are something you're born with.

Which is the basis of the Kirk in the JJ-verse...

 

[Christopher]

Nobody's born with leadership skills. Skills are learned, by definition. And remember, Dax has been a leader before. Lela was in the Trill government for many years, Curzon was a prominent and powerful diplomat, and Jadzia became an effective command officer despite being trained as a scientist. So any "innate" component to leadership is part of Ezri Dax at least three times over through her symbiont.

 

[MNM]

I didn't think Ezri (or the crew of the Aventine) stood out as being particularly interesting in Destiny, and in no way saw them as deserving of their own series (which is what I'm told is happening).

I thought she and the Aventine were one of the more interesting and enjoyable aspects of Destiny (A series I really enjoyed as it was).

I'd love an Aventine series, but I think you have been told wrongly that one is happening.

If I didn't already know that she makes it to Captaincy, I would have put good money that she wouldn't cut it in the big chair.

Personally I think in every story where she has featured where she has been on the command track that she has done a fine job with every aspect of command, and from that am not surprised she excels in the big chair.

Also, can anyone tell me why we need another lit series about a ship exploring space during the same period of time? Next Gen, Titan, New Frontier, Voyager, (are the SCE books still going?) and now Aventine as well?

"Need"? Probably not, however I would certainly be more interested in one than I am in the Titan, NF and Voyager series. Besides, the combination of Dax as captain and the slip stream drive of the Aventine changes the dynamic of what such a series could explore and do enough to make it different enough to "justify" a series in conjunction with the ones you mention in my opinion.

 

[mattburgess]

I know when I'm licked

 

[BrotherBenny]

I'd like to see a science ship series. Some kind of series with a more long-term feel than the others. The DS9R is no longer focused on getting Bajor back on its feet since it has joined the Federation, and I enjoyed the cultural expansion of the Bajorans that we got in TNG and DS9. It would be nice for a series to end up in orbit of, or on, a planet, helping the people recover after the Borg incident, or the DW or something.

 

[LutherSloan]

I'd like to see a science ship series. Some kind of series with a more long-term feel than the others. The DS9R is no longer focused on getting Bajor back on its feet since it has joined the Federation, and I enjoyed the cultural expansion of the Bajorans that we got in TNG and DS9. It would be nice for a series to end up in orbit of, or on, a planet, helping the people recover after the Borg incident, or the DW or something.

Have you read the Titan series?

 

[flemm]

I didn't think Ezri (or the crew of the Aventine) stood out as being particularly interesting in Destiny

I agree. What interests me about Dax is that the character has never been interesting, even going back to the tv series. The concept of a symbiotic lifeform with many lifetimes of experience certainly sounds like it should be interesting, but imo no one has been able to do anything especially memorable with it.

I think part of the problem is that we get the sense that a joined Trill should be different from everyone else in some way that is more significant than simply being able to draw on a memory every once in a while that happens to be from another life and not her own. However, there has never been any compelling vision of how, exactly, being joined affects a Trill other than granting additional memories and maybe destabilizing the host mind if it is unprepared.

The brief exchange earlier in this thread is an example of the sort of quandry I'm refering to:

Nobody's born with leadership skills. Skills are learned, by definition. And remember, Dax has been a leader before. Lela was in the Trill government for many years, Curzon was a prominent and powerful diplomat, and Jadzia became an effective command officer despite being trained as a scientist. So any "innate" component to leadership is part of Ezri Dax at least three times over through her symbiont.

Basically, the question is: does she need to learn a skill that she has already learned multiple times in the past, or not? Or, to put it another way: Ezri Dax must learn this skill and other skills differently from other people but how, exactly?

In practice, she and Jadzia seemed basically to learn skills just like everybody else. The problem with that answer is that it is boring and seems to reduce the symbiote's role to that of a database of stored memories that the host can access as she might a computer file, but which do not belong to her on a more intimate level. Example: she can remember Curzon's experiences as a diplomat but she cannot remember how to be a diplomat.

On the other hand, just allowing the host to completely absorb all of her past hosts' skills would probably come across as rather simple-minded and therefore uninteresting as well.

I figure there must be a middle-ground solution where the joined Trill comes across as having a depth of experience that is inaccessible to a non-Joined being in a single lifetime, but does so in a subtle and satisfying way. So far I haven't really seen that happen.

However, I will be checking out the Aventine novel to see a new and hopefully more compelling take on Ezri

 

[BrotherBenny]

I'd like to see a science ship series. Some kind of series with a more long-term feel than the others. The DS9R is no longer focused on getting Bajor back on its feet since it has joined the Federation, and I enjoyed the cultural expansion of the Bajorans that we got in TNG and DS9. It would be nice for a series to end up in orbit of, or on, a planet, helping the people recover after the Borg incident, or the DW or something.

Have you read the Titan series?

Luthor, I have read and thoroughly enjoyed the Titan series. Perhaps you could tell me where in the Titan series you have a science ship staying in orbit of one planet exploring ruins or helping to rebuild the infrastructure of a planetary civilisation for months/years. That is what I mean by a long-term feel, not an open-ended mission where they explore unknown space.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Perhaps you could tell me where in the Titan series you have a science ship staying in orbit of one planet exploring ruins or helping to rebuild the infrastructure of a planetary civilisation for months/years. That is what I mean by a long-term feel, not an open-ended mission where they explore unknown space.

What you're describing wouldn't involve a ship, though. Ships go from place to place. A long-term mission like you envision would best be served by a science station or base. Actually the scenario you're suggesting is an exact replay of DS9, so why tell the same story again?

 

[Christopher]

^Actually I've long thought that would be a more realistic format for a starship-adventure series -- rather than spending a couple of days at each planet before moving on, the ship would stay for months while a thorough survey was conducted, and an entire season (or at least half-season) would be devoted to an in-depth examination of this one planet and its various cultures, and then the ship would move on to a different planet and do the same. You can't do a meaningful survey of an entire world in less than months.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I'd love to see an Aventine series too, myself.

A TV show (or movie series), If I had my way, but hey....



Hmm...it would be cool to have Nicole deBoer do a voice over:

"Space...the Final Frontier....

These are the voyages of the Starship Aventine....

Her continuing mission: To explore strange new worlds...

To seek out new life, and new civilizations...

To boldly go...where no one has gone...before...."


About time we have a girl give that speech.



Well, as for the series, sure, a lot of exploring and boldly-going, but we also need some storylines on the Typhon Pact, etc. The more on that, the better.

 

[DEWLine]

I'd buy that on DVD.

After it aired on TV.

 

[Sci]

^Actually I've long thought that would be a more realistic format for a starship-adventure series -- rather than spending a couple of days at each planet before moving on, the ship would stay for months while a thorough survey was conducted, and an entire season (or at least half-season) would be devoted to an in-depth examination of this one planet and its various cultures, and then the ship would move on to a different planet and do the same. You can't do a meaningful survey of an entire world in less than months.

Yeah, but from a storytelling standpoint, it wouldn't ring true. "Ship" = "Movement" in the popular zeitgeist, and "station" = "holding still." If they do a story about a long-term assignment like that, then the setting would need to be a station, in order to signal to the audience not to expect movement any time soon. IMO, anyway.

 

[BrotherBenny]

^Actually I've long thought that would be a more realistic format for a starship-adventure series -- rather than spending a couple of days at each planet before moving on, the ship would stay for months while a thorough survey was conducted, and an entire season (or at least half-season) would be devoted to an in-depth examination of this one planet and its various cultures, and then the ship would move on to a different planet and do the same. You can't do a meaningful survey of an entire world in less than months.

Yeah, but from a storytelling standpoint, it wouldn't ring true. "Ship" = "Movement" in the popular zeitgeist, and "station" = "holding still." If they do a story about a long-term assignment like that, then the setting would need to be a station, in order to signal to the audience not to expect movement any time soon. IMO, anyway.

Christopher, glad we see eye to eye on this one. Perhaps you could pitch that as the post-Ex-Machina series.

Sci, the very fact that it is a ship, say a science vessel like a Nova, means that while the bulk of the crew on the surface making a thorough survey, the ship can do a quick survey of the system or rescue a ship in distress. Or one of the ship's complement of shuttles/runabouts can do other supplemental missions - exactly like DS9.

DarkGilligan, it's not telling DS9 over again because it would be a different culture, or ruins of an old civilisation. The point is, it could be anything at all.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I didn't think Ezri (or the crew of the Aventine) stood out as being particularly interesting in Destiny, and in no way saw them as deserving of their own series (which is what I'm told is happening).

I thought she and the Aventine were one of the more interesting and enjoyable aspects of Destiny (A series I really enjoyed as it was).

Seconded!

I'd love to see the Aventine get a series too, but even if she only appears during "crossover" stories like Destiny or the Typhon Pact, that'd be great too, IMO...

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but from a storytelling standpoint, it wouldn't ring true. "Ship" = "Movement" in the popular zeitgeist, and "station" = "holding still." If they do a story about a long-term assignment like that, then the setting would need to be a station, in order to signal to the audience not to expect movement any time soon. IMO, anyway.

If the assignments last half a season to a full season and then move on to the next one, I think the viewers would understand that a ship was necessary. Besides, a ship on the scale of a Galaxy-class vessel is essentially a space station unto itself. It's supposed to be this vast research platform with hundreds of scientists and labs. How does it make sense to have this huge university in space just spend a few paltry days at any given planet, especially if only the same half-dozen command officers and the occasional security guard are the only people who ever leave the ship? What's the point of even having all those scientists and labs aboard if you never stay in one place long enough to make any use of them? How does that ring true from a storytelling standpoint?

 

[BrotherBenny]

Yeah, but from a storytelling standpoint, it wouldn't ring true. "Ship" = "Movement" in the popular zeitgeist, and "station" = "holding still." If they do a story about a long-term assignment like that, then the setting would need to be a station, in order to signal to the audience not to expect movement any time soon. IMO, anyway.

If the assignments last half a season to a full season and then move on to the next one, I think the viewers would understand that a ship was necessary. Besides, a ship on the scale of a Galaxy-class vessel is essentially a space station unto itself. It's supposed to be this vast research platform with hundreds of scientists and labs. How does it make sense to have this huge university in space just spend a few paltry days at any given planet, especially if only the same half-dozen command officers and the occasional security guard are the only people who ever leave the ship? What's the point of even having all those scientists and labs aboard if you never stay in one place long enough to make any use of them? How does that ring true from a storytelling standpoint?

QFT.

I know we never got anything like that during TNG's run because serialised arcs like that weren't generally the norm, but I think such a show would work today. Failing that, a few books would not go amiss - especially if it has a few familiar faces.