Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"

[Guy Gardener]

You can call that slavery if you wish. Remember that toward the end of the series they're reconsidering the doctor's status and all but admit that he's sentient/sapient.

I remember in Author, Author where they legally reaffirmed that he was not a person, even if his literature was seen to be his property. The holorights subplot was interesting, but it wasn't completely clear what it was a metaphor for, either something old like race, or something newer like orientation, or if the writers were just pissing in the wind with no idea that any one would ever look for depth in their work that they hadn't bothered to consider. I really thought sometimes that the holorights stuff was just a call out to nerds who were picked on by jocks rather than a minority who was more clearly defined.

Plus in endgame he seems to have all the rights of a citizen, given that he can even marry.

The Doctor might have been a special case, he might have had abridged rights, he might have still have had no rights (not a legal marriage), or maybe there was a very bloody civil war where billions of fleshies and billions of ligthbulbs all died over the lightbulbs desires to not to be forced to wait tables for the fleshies under a constant threat of death.

Okay, you might be %99 right about this, but you can't be %100 because there is no definitive answer, just endless grey and wiggle.

Consider this.

The Federation can make truly sapient holograms if they want to, but they don't want to, because that would be wrong. They intentionally make dumb unsapient/insentient holograms so that they are all still good people... But smarter holograms make for better servants, so they try to make them as nearly sapient (userfriendly) as possible without actually being legally sapient, designated by some legally approved/mandated threshhold of sapience.

A 24th century Turing test will be a lot harder to pass than a 9th century Turing test. Seriously in the 9th century, the Doctor could convince the smartest person on the planet that he was God, but 1500 years later he's at a loss to devise an argument why he shouldn't accept slavery as his lot.

This is the abortion argument.

Before 24 weeks it's a thing you can legally kill, but after 24 weeks it's a person and you will go to jail if you even damage the foetus.

(Oh boy!)

If the Federation is evil, and they only do evil things, then sure, Holograms are sentient slaves and no one cares, but if the Federation is good and only does good things, and holograms are sentient, then the Federation would free all the sentient holograms from slavery instantly.

 

[Sophie74656]

It has been well established that they'll never run out of torpedoes or of shuttles, as long as they have energy, replicators and the manpower to built them.

To me this does make sense. They have the manpower, time and replicators to build them. We know they built the Delta Flyer twice, so they CAN do it.

 

[Sophie74656]

I remember in Author, Author where they legally reaffirmed that he was not a person, even if his literature was seen to be his property. The holorights subplot was interesting, but it wasn't completely clear what it was a metaphor for, either something old like race, or something newer like orientation, or if the writers were just pissing in the wind with no idea that any one would ever look for depth in their work that they hadn't bothered to consider. I really thought sometimes that the holorights stuff was just a call out to nerds who were picked on by jocks rather than a minority who was more clearly defined.



The Doctor might have been a special case, he might have had abridged rights, he might have still have had no rights (not a legal marriage), or maybe there was a very bloody civil war where billions of fleshies and billions of ligthbulbs all died over the lightbulbs desires to not to be forced to wait tables for the fleshies under a constant threat of death.

Okay, you might be %99 right about this, but you can't be %100 because there is no definitive answer, just endless grey and wiggle.

Consider this.

The Federation can make truly sapient holograms if they want to, but they don't want to, because that would be wrong. They intentionally make dumb unsapient/insentient holograms so that they are all still good people... But smarter holograms make for better servants, so they try to make them as nearly sapient (userfriendly) as possible without actually being legally sapient, designated by some legally approved/mandated threshhold of sapience.

A 24th century Turing test will be a lot harder to pass than a 9th century Turing test. Seriously in the 9th century, the Doctor could convince the smartest person on the planet that he was God, but 1500 years later he's at a loss to devise an argument why he shouldn't accept slavery as his lot.

This is the abortion argument.

Before 24 weeks it's a thing you can legally kill, but after 24 weeks it's a person and you will go to jail if you even damage the foetus.

(Oh boy!)

If the Federation is evil, and they only do evil things, then sure, Holograms are sentient slaves and no one cares, but if the Federation is good and only does good things, and holograms are sentient, then the Federation would free all the sentient holograms from slavery instantly.

In Author Author they did not rule one way or the other if he was a person. It was not said that he was NOT a person though. They just said he was covered under artist's rights.

ARBITRATOR: We're exploring new territory today, so it is fitting that this hearing is being held at Pathfinder. The Doctor exhibits many of the traits we associate with a person. Intelligence, creativity, ambition, even fallibility. But are these traits real, or is the Doctor merely programmed to simulate them? To be honest, I don't know. Eventually we will have to decide, because the issue of holographic rights isn't going to go away. But at this time, I am not prepared to rule that the Doctor is a person under the law. However, it is obvious he is no ordinary hologram and while I can't say with certainty that he is a person, I am willing to extend the legal definition of artist to include the Doctor. I therefore rule that he has the right to control his work. I'm ordering all copies of his holo-novels to be recalled immediately.

 

[Anwar]

Even though VOY behaved like the ship had infinite resources?

I'm talking about stuff like access to the rest of the Trekverse.

"Obscene?" When I'm promised a product and get something else, I'm going to analyze the reasons why.

Wasn't aware that was obscene

Plenty of plot holes endlessly brought up in VOY are ignored in the other series.

Because it had been made a point earlier in the show. Kind of like the photon torpedoes or shuttles. There were limits that were ignored apropos of nothing.

So yes, a good story just isn't enough for viewers.

Because it was better and more consistently made?

DS9 got kid's gloves treatment.

One half of my answer is a guess based on available information and the other half is answered in the episode itself. Not to mention that neither half of the point is a plot hole.

That's a pretty big guess, all things considered. Must bigger than anything in Living Witness.

 

[locutus101]

To me this does make sense. They have the manpower, time and replicators to build them. We know they built the Delta Flyer twice, so they CAN do it.

I think in order to make this work, half of the crew should be permanently assigned to build things.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Author Author they did not rule one way or the other if he was a person. It was not said that he was NOT a person though. They just said he was covered under artist's rights.

[snip] But at this time, I am not prepared to rule that the Doctor is a person under the law. [snip]

Imagine your life if I took away all your legal rights attached to you perceived but legally undefined personhood.

Anyone in the world could write dirty words on your face with a biro and it would be totally legal, and it might be illegal for you to try and stop them, since they are people and you are either a thing or an animal.

That judge/admiral had to say that the Doctor was a person so that he would stop not being a person, but he didn't so until someone starts not stopping calling him property, he is unilaterally still not a person like every other hologram.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I think in order to make this work, half of the crew should be permanently assigned to build things.

Seeing as we only saw brief glimpses of the non-star crew, that is a good of an explanation as any as to where they all had gone off to.

 

[locutus101]

Imagine your life if I took away all your legal rights attached to you perceived but legally undefined personhood.

Anyone in the world could write dirty words on your face with a biro and it would be totally legal, and it might be illegal for you to try and stop them, since they are people and you are either a thing or an animal.

That judge/admiral had to say that the Doctor was a person so that he would stop not being a person, but he didn't so until someone starts not stopping calling him property, he is unilaterally still not a person like every other hologram.

But he OWNS things. To me that makes him implicitly a person.

 

[Tosk]

That's a pretty big guess, all things considered. Must bigger than anything in Living Witness.

If you say so. So what's another one?

 

[Sophie74656]

Seeing as we only saw brief glimpses of the non-star crew, that is a good of an explanation as any as to where they all had gone off to.

Right we basically only saw some adventures of the senior staff. That's 9 people out of at least 140. So that leaves plenty of people to build those shuttles.

 

[locutus101]

Right we basically only saw some adventures of the senior staff. That's 9 people out of at least 140. So that leaves plenty of people to build those shuttles.

Funny, when they were stranded on the volcanic planet, there were like thirty of them, of course they kept making these camera moves so it would be hard to find out, but not impossible.

 

[Anwar]

If you say so. So what's another one?

Let's see...covered the Dominion War and Klingons...Sisko doesn't seem to remember the events of this episode and what he saw of the future in later episodes either.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Right we basically only saw some adventures of the senior staff. That's 9 people out of at least 140. So that leaves plenty of people to build those shuttles.

And recharge the torpedoes that missed.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm talking about stuff like access to the rest of the Trekverse.

Ok...not sure what the point is then, given that DS9 also showed off different aliens races that were not previously scene in Trekverse.

Plenty of plot holes endlessly brought up in VOY are ignored in the other series.

It depends on the quality of the episode, if the writers make a point out of it and then ignore it. It isn't a blanket statement that can be made.

So yes, a good story just isn't enough for viewers.

Again, it depends. This is the first time I have heard complaints about the EMH backup and still cannot find the "excessive" criticism.

DS9 got kid's gloves treatment.

Here you go.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But he OWNS things. To me that makes him implicitly a person.

Just because I am the worst, the Federation is a hive of pinko communists, who don't have money.

No one actually owns anything as an individual.

Communal property regulated by a central authority.

By your rules, if no one owns anything, then anyone can't be people.

 

[locutus101]

...
Here you go.

Someone should tell this guy that hyperbole is rarely convincing. Sarcasm does a much better job.

 

[fireproof78]

Someone should tell this guy that hyperbole is rarely convincing. Sarcasm does a much better job.

In text form, it depends.

 

[locutus101]

Just because I am the worst, the Federation is a hive of pinko communists, who don't have money.

No one actually owns anything as an individual.

Communal property regulated by a central authority.

By your rules, if no one owns anything, then anyone can't be people.

Now you're indulging in sophistry. Just because owning things may be sufficient to define a person doesn't mean it's necessary.

Incidentally, it also a math thing. You know: sufficient, necessary, necessary and sufficient, necessary but not sufficient, sufficient but not necessary.

Nuances.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore....

 

[locutus101]

I don't even know what we are arguing about anymore....

That's the beauty of it. No one does.