Excessive Criticism of "STAR TREK VOYAGER"

[Guy Gardener]

The doctor may have become sentient because something unforseen or unexplained happened to his program, but there's was no eureka moment where he declered "Yes! I am a real Doctor!"

If he became sentient, we don't know the point in the story where he transitioned from sentient to non sentient. It might have been a season 2 episode, or it might have been a season 5 episode.

No matter when he did become a person, the Doctor was treated like a floor model fresh out of the box the entire time, by a group of human beings (others) who loved him like their teddy bear, who is also not a person.

It wasn't his improved personhood which got him treated more like a person, it was their increased anthropomorphizing.

 

[Sophie74656]

It could be argued that using the transporter you can duplicate people as well. And it really happened (Riker).

And merge people....ala Tuvix

 

[Sophie74656]

The doctor may have become sentient because something unforseen or unexplained happened to his program, but there's was no eureka moment where he declered "Yes! I am a real Doctor!"

If he became sentient, we don't know the point in the story where he transitioned from sentient to non sentient. It might have been a season 2 episode, or it might have been a season 5 episode.

No matter when he did become a person, the Doctor was treated like a floor model fresh out of the box the entire time, by a group of human beings (others) who loved him like their teddy bear, who is also not a person.

It wasn't his improved personhood which got him treated more like a person, it was their increased anthropomorphizing.

No there wasn't one specific moment. Just like with Data

 

[locutus101]

The doctor may have become sentient because something unforseen or unexplained happened to his program, but there's was no eureka moment where he declered "Yes! I am a real Doctor!"

If he became sentient, we don't know the point in the story where he transitioned from sentient to non sentient. It might have been a season 2 episode, or it might have been a season 5 episode.

No matter when he did become a person, the Doctor was treated like a floor model fresh out of the box the entire time, by a group of human beings (others) who loved him like their teddy bear, who is also not a person.

It wasn't his improved personhood which got him treated more like a person, it was their increased anthropomorphizing.

I believe the doctor would pass the Turing test.

 

[stardream]

I still think the EMH from the Equinox had something to do with the backup Doctor.

 

[Anwar]

Either the Dominion War was Sisko's fault or Odo went back to his people early, placating them and putting an end to that problem. The Klingon situation was explained in the episode, the Federation turned control of DS9 over to the Klingons.

What else?

That's the main one. But you've just demonstrated how people will bend over backwards to justify anything DS9 does while VOY is ripped apart.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I believe the doctor would pass the Turing test.

When.

Do you think he would pass the Turing test in Caretaker?

He was definitely not sentient the moment he was turned on for the first time, or he's a slave, but if a factory model with no upgrades or glitches, or errors can pass pass the Turing test then holograms are slaves and everyone in the Federaiton owns slaves, and their economy is supported by slavery.

If he can pass the Turing test when he is not sentient, then what does it matter that he can pass it when he is sentient?

 

[Guy Gardener]

No there wasn't one specific moment. Just like with Data

No. Data was made to be sentient.

If Data was not sentient, Soong would have crushed his brain with a mallet and started again.

 

[fireproof78]

It doesn't change that everything people say they like about DS9 vs VOY is due to the extra resources DS9 had that VOY didn't.

Even though VOY behaved like the ship had infinite resources?

You would be too if every last little thing you did was ripped apart to an obscene level.

"Obscene?" When I'm promised a product and get something else, I'm going to analyze the reasons why.

Wasn't aware that was obscene.

And guess what the number one thing people always point out about that episode? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the plot or the acting or the premise.

Because it had been made a point earlier in the show. Kind of like the photon torpedoes or shuttles. There were limits that were ignored apropos of nothing.

That's the main one. But you've just demonstrated how people will bend over backwards to justify anything DS9 does while VOY is ripped apart.

Because it was better and more consistently made?

 

[Tracy Trek]

I actually do agree with this. I understand that he wanted to fix it once he found out it was not real, but before that if it was me I would have wanted to stay

Concerning Non Sequiter, I think there should have at least been a line where Harry mentions calling his parents.

 

[Tosk]

But you've just demonstrated how people will bend over backwards to justify anything DS9 does while VOY is ripped apart.

One half of my answer is a guess based on available information and the other half is answered in the episode itself. Not to mention that neither half of the point is a plot hole.

Also, there's no way I would justify anything DS9 did. There are plenty of things I think should have been handled differently. But fewer things than VOY.

That's the main one.

What's another one?

 

[tomalak301]

I liked Voyager. I'm rewatching it now and it's still as enjoyable as when I was watching it growing up. I do think it has been excessively criticized, but it was on at the same time as DS9, which was a series that was trying to be different from what came before. For all the show's flaws, I still like this cast, and I still like most episodes and I'm enjoying my current rewatch now.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Concerning Non Sequiter, I think there should have at least been a line where Harry mentions calling his parents.

Replicators replace all dirty clothing, after one wearing.

Now that laundry does not exist, no one has to talk to their parents ever again in the future.

 

[Lance]

There's an old truism, "You're only as good as your last."

Berman and Braga went on to make Enterprise, so (ironically) Voyager will always be saved from the harshest of online criticisms. Those are reserved for what came after.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Brannon created and produced season one of Salem. Season 3 starts in 2 months. I rewatched the pilot to Terra Nova a month ago. It holds up. Flashforward deserved a second season too. Maybe he's floundering or maybe he's just looking for a good project to sink his teeth into?

Berman has not written or produced anything since Enterprise. It's possible that he invested wisely, so that he can live like he's working for the rest of his life without working.

 

[locutus101]

When.

Do you think he would pass the Turing test in Caretaker?

He was definitely not sentient the moment he was turned on for the first time, or he's a slave, but if a factory model with no upgrades or glitches, or errors can pass pass the Turing test then holograms are slaves and everyone in the Federaiton owns slaves, and their economy is supported by slavery.

If he can pass the Turing test when he is not sentient, then what does it matter that he can pass it when he is sentient?

I don't think time is what makes a computer program sentient , complexity is. I believe the doctor was simply complex enough when activated to be sentient. The crazy isomorph from "revulsion" was sentient too and so was the Da Vinci program, even though the latter had existed for a much shorter time than the doctor, only a few hours likely. Remember that Janeway would activate him only when she was in the holodeck.

 

[Guy Gardener]

So slavery it is.

Then of course that depends on your definitions.

There was an asshole here once that came in with the text book definition of sentience "to be able to sense the world around them" which is different from the Star Trek definition (wikipedia says that science fiction got it wrong so long ago, and so often, that the philosophers gave up trying to correct the nerds because it was exhausting.) to be a real person who is alive with the rights attributed to being a real person like all other real people, and picked a fight with me, but didn't stay around long enough to find out that she was wrong.

So are you using the original definition of the word/concept sentience that the doctor is aware that he is a slave but it doesn't matter because we haven't figured out if he is a person, or the amended science fiction definition of the word/word sentience when you say that the Federation is using sentient holographic people as a slave workforce?

You do remember that the Federation is too nice to keep slaves, right?

 

[locutus101]

So slavery it is.

Then of course that depends on your definitions.

There was an asshole here once that came in with the text book definition of sentience "to be able to sense the world around them" which is different from the Star Trek definition (wikipedia says that science fiction got it wrong so long ago, and so often, that the philosophers gave up trying to correct the nerds because it was exhausting.) to be a real person who is alive with the rights attributed to being a real person like all other real people, and picked a fight with me, but didn't stay around long enough to find out that she was wrong.

So are you using the original definition of the word/concept sentience that the doctor is aware that he is a slave but it doesn't matter because we haven't figured out if he is a person, or the amended science fiction definition of the word/word sentience when you say that the Federation is using sentient holographic people as a slave workforce?

You do remember that the Federation is too nice to keep slaves, right?

No I know that the adequate word is sapience but everyone says sentience so...

The Turing test is meant to prove sapience not sentience. So that's what I mean: The Doctor, Crazy isomorph and Da Vinci are all sapient.

You can call that slavery if you wish. Remember that toward the end of the series they're reconsidering the doctor's status and all but admit that he's sentient/sapient.

Plus in endgame he seems to have all the rights of a citizen, given that he can even marry.

 

[stardream]

Because it had been made a point earlier in the show. Kind of like the photon torpedoes or shuttles. There were limits that were ignored apropos of nothing.

I understand the frustration about the torpedoes but was there ever a line that stated they could never replace shuttles? Because they obviously did. We saw them do it.

I think part of the reason for'mistakes' like that was the production team assuming lines like that would be forgotten. Oh...here in the middle of Season 6 no one is going to remember a line from the first season except for a small minority who will buy the tapes (it was tapes in those days) and who cares about them?

 

[locutus101]

It has been well established that they'll never run out of torpedoes or of shuttles, as long as they have energy, replicators and the manpower to built them.