Evidence of SNW being a possible alternate timeline from TOS

[fireproof78]

I never got the impression from TWOK that Kirk and Spock knew each other at the Academy, and indeed I've taken issue with the various tie-ins over the years that presented them meeting each other as Cadets since my interpretation on WNMHGB is that they were only just getting to know each other. Which SNW actually works with. Though Kirk and Spock have clearly met each other before Kirk takes command of the Enterprise, it isn't until he takes command that Kirk and Spock really serve with each other full time, and so WNMHGB being the early days of Kirk's term commanding the ship, it makes sense him and Spock are still getting to really know each other, despite having first met a few years earlier.

Yeah, that's why Shatner 's book bugged me, as well as some of the YA Academy novels. There's no indication of familiarity between Kirk and Spock in their Academy days. Spock even says in TWOK he never took the Kobiyashi Maru test which is odd to say if Kirk knows this of his friend since they went to the Academy.

 

[Yistaan]

Spock: The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc with students and equipment. As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?

Kirk: It had the virtue of never having been tried. Oh, by the way, ...thank you for this.

Spock not only knows that Kirk cheated on the Kobayashi Maru, but that he took it 3 times. That really doesn't seem like someone who heard about it after the fact but more like someone who was there at the time. Regardless SNW shot that down so the point is moot now.

The Maru's already been kind of inconsistent in canon anyway. Burnham talks about cadets taking it at the Academy and acts like she took it at the Academy, even though she never went to Starfleet Academy but went to the Vulcan Science Academy instead.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Spock may have learned about it during the mind meld in "New Life and New Civilizations". Or, at that point they'd known each other for about 20 years, maybe Kirk just told him.

 

[Campe]

My interpretation is that Spock not only has known Kirk for some time, but also he likely read his personnel file. I imagine that would speak to Kirk’s efforts with the test.

I never once took it as the two knowing each other at the Academy.

 

[cooleddie74]

"You took the test three times yourself" to me says, "You either told me this yourself or I learned it when researching your personal history."

 

[fireproof78]

equipment. As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?

Sounds like Spock recalling a story too him.

even though she never went to Starfleet Academy but went to the Vulcan Science Academy instead.

She's literally a Starfleet officer so she went to the Academy.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I never took Kirk & Spock's exchange at the beginning of TWOK to mean that they knew each other at the Academy, but I thought the ST09 version was an interesting extrapolation/interpretation. I don't feel like it contradicted anything.

And it's fine that Spock knew about it even though he & Kirk didn't know each other back then. Friends talk.

But yeah, in my headcanon Kirk & Spock first met when Kirk took over the Enterprise from Pike.

 

[Yistaan]

We know that Spock went to Starfleet Academy shortly after Sarek dropped Burnham from the Vulcan Science Group in 2249 in exchange for Spock's future Vulcan admission. Meaning Spock had to have started SFA at 2249 in the earliest and graduated in 2253.

The Starfleet Academy show website says Kirk graduated in 2254.

It's not unreasonable to think that they'd have run into each other at least once in the Academy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There's a world of difference between on the one hand running into and being acquainted with and on the other hand knowing or being friends with. Different from all of the above is being close to, as even friendship does not necessitate close friendship.

 

[cooleddie74]

Exactly. I'm friends with many people, and can't offhand tell you where at least half of them went to college or high school. Even the ones I went to those schools with sometimes have to embarrassingly remind me.

 

[Firebird]

It's not unreasonable to think that they'd have run into each other at least once in the Academy.

That may be so, but that’s still taking a few fandom leaps to make an assumption based on a single line of dialogue.

The line as-written only imparts that Spock is aware of Kirk’s record, which given how notable it was for Kirk to have defeated the Kobayashi Maru, could easily mean several on campus at the Academy could have a passing acquaintance with his reputation without knowing him personally.

 

[fireproof78]

That may be so, but that’s still taking a few fandom leaps to make an assumption based on a single line of dialogue.

The line as-written only imparts that Spock is aware of Kirk’s record, which given how notable it was for Kirk to have defeated the Kobayashi Maru, could easily mean several on campus at the Academy could have a passing acquaintance with his reputation without knowing him personally.

Especially since Spock wasn't in the command school. The Academy is a big place.

There's no reason to assume so that they knew each other. It's fun fanon and that's about it.

 

[The Wormhole]

Even if we assume Kirk and Spock attended the Academy at the same time, I'm sure the story of the cadet who just beat the unbeatable Kobayashi Maru is a story which would spread across the campus like wildfire. Spock would undoubtedly have heard classmates discussing the matter. There really is no reason to assume Kirk and Spock knew each other as Cadets, or that they even had run-ins. After all, there's probably what, a thousand cadets attending Academy each year, and that's including all four classes. Maybe more? Let's just go with a thousand for this discussion, my high school had a thousand kids going to it when I attended, and there were only a small fraction of which I knew personally or would even pass by in the halls. Hell, there were several kids at my graduation ceremony who I don't remember seeing the entire time I was attending high school, including the ones who were sitting around me during the ceremony.

 

[Campe]

If one was to trust the dates on Memory Alpha, Spock was a commissioned officer as of 2250 and Kirk had just entered the Academy in 2252. So adding those potential data points, it does not seem as though they knew one another at the Academy. Either the mind meld someone mentioned above, Spock read Kirk’s personnel file or maybe the fact that they were friends for 20 years at the time of TWOK or some combination led to Spock knowing the story.

 

[TRON JA307020]

So another huge inconsistency. In dagger of the mind Spock says he never mind melded with a human. Yet in SNW he clearly melds with kirk. So this is a big deal. The meld was introduced in dagger of the mind. They may not have called it a mind meld yet but thats what it was. Either the people making SNW dont know their star trek history or kurtzman Trek is an alternate history.

 

[Campe]

Inconsistency? Sure.
Huge? I think that’s up to interpretation.

ETA: There are also many occasions when Spock says that Vulcans do not lie, but in many cases, Spock does in fact lie. In the scene in question, Spock indicates that a mind meld is a very personal thing. He is talking to McCoy, someone there is a love-hate relationship with and Van Gelder, someone he really doesn’t know. Would you tell a deep personal secret to that audience? I wouldn’t.

In the end, I don’t look at this as an inconsistency, but instead as a deepening of the character.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Inconsistency? Sure.
Huge? I think that’s up to interpretation.

ETA: There are also many occasions when Spock says that Vulcans do not lie, but in many cases, Spock does in fact lie. In the scene in question, Spock indicates that a mind meld is a very personal thing. He is talking to McCoy, someone there is a love-hate relationship with and Van Gelder, someone he really doesn’t know. Would you tell a deep personal secret to that audience? I wouldn’t.

In the end, I don’t look at this as an inconsistency, but instead as a deepening of the character.

There's no reason for Spock to lie to McCoy. Also in SNW Spock melds with Kirk in front of others. So there's no reason by tos for him to lie to McCoy by TOS because its known he's done the meld before.

 

[UssGlenn]

The meld was introduced in dagger of the mind. They may not have called it a mind meld yet but thats what it was. Either the people making SNW dont know their star trek history or kurtzman Trek is an alternate history.

As the introductory episode, it falls under early installment weirdness. They didn't know it would become such an important part of the mythos.

 

[Campe]

There's no reason for Spock to lie to McCoy. Also in SNW Spock melds with Kirk in front of others. So there's no reason by tos for him to lie to McCoy by TOS because its known he's done the meld before.

Boy, I miss the days when Star Trek fans actually tried to explain inconsistencies as opposed to just writing them off as “non canon.”

Again, Spock is not just with Bones. He’s also with Van Gelder, someone he DOESN’T know. And he says, very clearly, it’s personal.

 

[TRON JA307020]

As the introductory episode, it falls under early installment weirdness. They didn't know it would become such an important part of the mythos.

But this is a pretty big deal. They introduced the meld in that episode so its memorable. Kind of a big deal. He specifically says its the first time he's done the meld in a human. It helps resolve the episode and save kirk. But now we know just s few short years before he used it on Kirk to save two federation ships. Everyone in board knows about the meld.

Boy, I miss the days when Star Trek fans actually tried to explain inconsistencies as opposed to just writing them off as “non canon.”

Again, he’s not just with Bones. He’s also with Van Gelder, someone he DOESN’T know. And he says, very clearly, it’s personal.

He has an audience in SNW.