Event alluded to by Bryan Fuller.

[Timo]

A great many people here seem to think that Vina's looks are what the Talosians considered "right" for humans, to the best of their knowledge. Why? Neither Vina nor the Talosians ever suggest such a thing.

Of course, such a premise is fundamentally flawed. Looks derive from proper reconstruction, not vice versa. If the reconstruction fails, then looks won't help: if the skull can't be put together without squeezing the damaged brain to pulp, then fashioning a pretty face onto the skull is impossible, and indeed fatal for the victim.

What Vina looked like is actually pretty irrelevant anyway: Talosians could make her look like an Orion dancer or possibly a sixteen-legged dragon if they so wished. What is interesting is whether Vina was still fertile after all that damage!

It seems more probable that Vina was simply dead. There's no story requirement for her having been alive at any point: her function was to lure in Pike, then to lure out Pike without hard feelings. Single captives sounded fine
as far Talosian plans went - their other captives appeared single all.

Ultimately, we should listen to Boyce here. Whatever the Talosians did, they won. By definition. If we thought otherwise, that's only because the Talosians wanted us to. There's no mechanism that would entice the Talosians to choosing losing. And indeed "The Menagerie" explicates that Pike lost: his attempt a quarantining the planet came to nought, and everything was as before.

(I fear the difference between TOS writing and STD writing would be the latter explicating that the heroes lost, and thinking it "edgy". TOS left us to draw the conclusions ourselves. But "concluding" a TOS adventure or reference logically might well be what this "event" is all about.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I read the first couple paragraphs of that, @Timo, and was all set to hit "like"; then I read the rest, and just went...

I can't wait to see what @locutus101 does with that!

 

[locutus101]

...which means they would be as utterly unfamiliar with a human being's proper internal configuration (and the procedures necessary to operate thereupon without error or complication) as they would be with one's proper external appearance. They could potentially glean the latter from Vina's mind, were it in any condition to be read, before beginning their work on her, but not the former. And the former would be at least as crucial in doing a more adept job of repairing Vina's physical injuries and restoring her physique, and in all likelihood more so.


Those illusions were derived from the imaginations of the Enterprise crew, just as the illusion of beauty they gave Vina was no doubt derived from hers. A mental picture is all the Talosians required to generate such an illusion, but it would not remotely approach being enough to enable their physical re-creation of it through improvised surgery on a patient who was little more than "a lump of flesh."

BOYCE: It was a perfect illusion. They had us seeing just what we wanted to see, human beings who'd survived with dignity and bravery, everything entirely logical, right down to the building of the camp, the tattered clothing, everything. Now, let's be sure we understand the danger of this. The inhabitants of this planet can read our minds. They can create illusions out of a person's own thoughts, memories, and experiences, even out of a person's own desires. Illusions just as real and solid as this tabletop, and just as impossible to ignore.


Indeed we are. The Talosians' power to create illusory imitations of reality was far beyond ours. Their skill at ad hoc reconstructive surgery on humans was quite evidently not.

I feel that we're arguing at cross purposes. For example your lengthy explanation about how they didn't know the position of the internal organs is irrelevant. Vina's deformities were all external and perfectly obvious. Anybody, who'd seen even a picture of a human being wouldn't have made them. The position of her internal organs is irrelevant as long as she's viable, if she had her liver up and her heart down she would look pretty much the same outwardly. They simulated a bunch of human beings quite perfectly at the beginning. You can't do that if you don't have a pretty good idea of what humans look like and how they move.

 

[Timo]

Vina's deformities were all external

A hump in the back is certainly internal. Trying to flatten it out with a pressing iron just kills the victim. A curved spine is internal. Trying to pry it straight with a crowbar kills the victim. Putting the spleen where the appendix ought to be kills the victim.

In contrast, sawing off a leg is survivable. Punching a face to pulp is survivable. Carving an eye out is survivable. Had Vina been suffering from something like that, a makeup artist with a carpenter for a wife might have "put her back together". No such luck with Vina's all-internal deformities.

The position of her internal organs is irrelevant as long as she's viable

Quite the opposite. She isn't viable unless her internal organs are in the right places - and she can't have good looks if her internal organs aren't in the right places, because corpses don't look good in general. (Although on Talos, that doesn't matter because corpses can look whatever you want them to look like.)

They simulated a bunch of human beings quite perfectly at the beginning. You can't do that if you don't have a pretty good idea of what humans look like and how they move.

And? You can do that without knowing the first thing about how humans are put together - artists of all sorts have been doing that forever. But give an artist a humpack and tell him to make her a prettily dancing straightback, and you get a corpse.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[locutus101]

A hump in the back is certainly internal. Trying to flatten it out with a pressing iron just kills the victim. A curved spine is internal. Trying to pry it straight with a crowbar kills the victim. Putting the spleen where the appendix ought to be kills the victim.

In contrast, sawing off a leg is survivable. Punching a face to pulp is survivable. Carving an eye out is survivable. Had Vina been suffering from something like that, a makeup artist with a carpenter for a wife might have "put her back together". No such luck with Vina's all-internal deformities.



Quite the opposite. She isn't viable unless her internal organs are in the right places - and she can't have good looks if her internal organs aren't in the right places, because corpses don't look good in general. (Although on Talos, that doesn't matter because corpses can look whatever you want them to look like.)



And? You can do that without knowing the first thing about how humans are put together - artists of all sorts have been doing that forever. But give an artist a humpack and tell him to make her a prettily dancing straightback, and you get a corpse.

Timo Saloniemi

Artists have been wrong about many things throughout the ages, especially about how a horse moves his legs, you can't know how a human moves unless you have a pretty good idea on how his limbs are articulated and his muscles positioned. Plus Spock has his organs positioned differently from human's and yet he could pass as human. As a matter of fact he did, several times. You keep overstating your views. I don't think that does a lot to help your case.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I feel that we're arguing at cross purposes. For example your lengthy explanation about how they didn't know the position of the internal organs is irrelevant. Vina's deformities were all external and perfectly obvious. Anybody, who'd seen even a picture of a human being wouldn't have made them. The position of her internal organs is irrelevant as long as she's viable, if she had her liver up and her heart down she would look pretty much the same outwardly. They simulated a bunch of human beings quite perfectly at the beginning. You can't do that if you don't have a pretty good idea of what humans look like and how they move.

I did not refer to her heart and liver, I referred to her bones and tendons and musculature, the structure that gives gives the human body its shape and symmetry and support. Her shoulders and neck/spine are clearly crooked. The "hump" seems (in my non-expert opinion) reasonably consistent with (WARNING: medical imagery at link) post-traumatic kyphosis which can arise from untreated or improperly treated vertebral fractures. She hobbles with a limp as if her legs may not be exactly the same length, or one of them may not be straight. Or a foot might be crooked, or missing toes, or might even have been amputated. We really don't get a good look. She has a lot of scarring to her face. She may have some slight facial paralysis due to nerve damage, or her jaw may lack some mobility, as she speaks through slightly clenched teeth.

None of these are unusual for the victim of a bad crash or other accident to suffer. Human doctors have expertise in minimizing their effects from the outset, and in correcting them after the fact. (And how successful they are at either depends greatly on the extent of the initial injuries, the conditions under which the operations are performed, the skill and experience of the surgeon, the quality of post-operative care, etc.) The Talosians had no such expertise, because this was their first encounter with a human. (And Vina didn't have it either, it would seem.)

Once again, the illusory other survivors of the Columbia were drawn from the expectations in the minds of the Enterprise landing party. Such is explicitly indicated in the dialogue, which is in the post you quoted. That was 18 years after they had operated on Vina. They gave Vina an illusory appearance of proper human form, presumably drawn from her own mind in the same way. But her injuries were too severe, and the Talosians were too inexperienced with humans, and they were too inept at repairing things in general, for it to be possible to physically reconstruct that appearance from what they found dying in the wreckage that day, whether they read her mind or not. I respectfully suggest you watch the episode again, or read the transcript.

you can't know how a human moves unless you have a pretty good idea on how his limbs are articulated and his muscles positioned.

You absolutely can, if you can look into someone's mind and pluck the image directly out of it and project it exactly as they expect to see it from their own experience and/or imagination. But that will not teach you the techniques of how to take a bone that has been shattered, reassemble the fragments, and properly align and set it. It will not guide you in reconnecting tendons and muscles to that bone in the precisely proper order and arrangement. It will not allow you to reconnect nerves that have been severed. It will not show you how to stitch up a wound in the optimum way to minimize scarring.

 

[locutus101]

I did not refer to her heart and liver, I referred to her bones and tendons and musculature, the structure that gives gives the human body its shape and symmetry and support. Her shoulders and neck/spine are clearly crooked. The "hump" seems (in my non-expert opinion) reasonably consistent with post-traumatic kyphosis (WARNING: medical imagery at that link) which can arise from untreated or improperly treated vertebral fractures. She hobbles with a limp as if her legs may not be exactly the same length, or one of them may not be straight. Or a foot might be crooked, or missing toes, or might even have been amputated. We really don't get a good look. She has a lot of scarring to her face. She may have some slight facial paralysis due to nerve damage, or her jaw may lack some mobility, as she speaks through slightly clenched teeth.

None of these are unusual for the victim of a bad crash or other accident to suffer. Human doctors have expertise in minimizing their effects from the outset, and in correcting them after the fact. (And how successful they are at either depends greatly on the extent of the initial injuries, the conditions under which the operations are performed, the skill and experience of the surgeon, the quality of post-operative care, etc.) The Talosians had no such expertise, because this was their first encounter with a human. (And Vina didn't have it either, it would seem.)

Once again, the illusory other survivors of the Columbia were drawn from the expectations in the minds of the Enterprise landing party. Such is explicitly indicated in the dialogue, which is in the post you quoted. That was 18 years after they had operated on Vina. They gave Vina an illusory appearance of proper human form, presumably drawn from her own mind in the same way. But her injuries were too severe, and the Talosians were too inexperienced with humans, and they were too inept at repairing things in general, for it to be possible to physically reconstruct that appearance from what they found dying in the wreckage that day, whether they read her mind or not. I respectfully suggest you watch the episode again, or read the transcript.


You absolutely can, if you can look into someone's mind and pluck the image directly out of it and project it exactly as they expect to see it from their own experience. But that will not teach you the techniques of how to take a bone that has been shattered, reassemble the fragments, and properly align and set it. It will not guide you in reconnecting tendons and muscles to that bone in the precisely proper order and arrangement. It will not allow you to reconnect nerves that have been severed. It will not show you how to stitch up a wound in the optimum way to minimize scarring.

I think that in order to put together a body that will live for years, you have to have a pretty good idea of these different techniques you're speaking of. In fact they were likely far superior in that respect that our current expert surgeons are, so I think that pretty much invalidates an important part of your argument. As for the simulation of the dozen of people or so at the beginning. It can't be convincing enough if you don't position correctly the muscles and the bones when someone moves. If they had made mistakes there then it would have been obvious to the observer that he was being deceived. in any case they should have been able to do a much better job than they did with Vina, given what they were capable of otherwise.

 

[Timo]

Artists have been wrong about many things throughout the ages, especially about how a horse moves his legs, you can't know how a human moves unless you have a pretty good idea on how his limbs are articulated and his muscles positioned.

Total bullshit. Certain generations of artists may have had that knowledge. Others have simply looked at human beings move. (You can ask a human to pose, while it's a bit more difficult with horses - that's the only difference here.)

Plus Spock has his organs positioned differently from human's and yet he could pass as human. As a matter of fact he did, several times.

And? If you repositioned his organs, he would die. If human organs were repositioned the way they are inside a Vulcan, the human would die.

(But if you fed Spock into a rice picker and disfigured his ears, he wouldn't die - he'd simply look more human. That's cosmetics for you. Passing for human isn't a problem when you are alive and mostly well by the standards of your humanlike species. It's a big problem if you are a mess inside.)

You keep overstating your views. I don't think that does a lot to help your case.

There's no case. There's simply the categorical truth that the insides of the human have to be put together correctly for the human to live; that this requires extraordinary knowledge that, say, nobody on this BBS possesses (not without accessing databases that on the Columbia obviously were defunct because those of the Enterprise came as a revelation to the Talosians); and that unless the internals are put together well enough, mere survival won't amount to good looks. None of these issues are disputable in the slightest.

If they had made mistakes there then it would have been obvious to the observer that he was being deceived.

No. After all, the imagery came from the mind of the observer. If there were any mistakes there, the observer would correct them. As Boyce said, in terms of the details, the heroes saw what they wanted to see - only the general theme came from the Talosians, who had zero need to sweat details.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[locutus101]

Total bullshit. Certain generations of artists may have had that knowledge. Others have simply looked at human beings move. (You can ask a human to pose, while it's a bit more difficult with horses - that's the only difference here.)
And? If you repositioned his organs, he would die. If human organs were repositioned the way they are inside a Vulcan, the human would die.
(But if you fed Spock into a rice picker and disfigured his ears, he wouldn't die - he'd simply look more human. That's cosmetics for you. Passing for human isn't a problem when you are alive and mostly well by the standards of your humanlike species. It's a big problem if you are a mess inside.)
There's no case. There's simply the categorical truth that the insides of the human have to be put together correctly for the human to live; that this requires extraordinary knowledge that, say, nobody on this BBS possesses (not without accessing databases that on the Columbia obviously were defunct because those of the Enterprise came as a revelation to the Talosians); and that unless the internals are put together well enough, mere survival won't amount to good looks. None of these issues are disputable in the slightest.
No. After all, the imagery came from the mind of the observer. If there were any mistakes there, the observer would correct them. As Boyce said, in terms of the details, the heroes saw what they wanted to see - only the general theme came from the Talosians, who had zero need to sweat details.

Timo Saloniemi

You're just stating an opinion different from mine, you're not proving anything and your repeated use of terms like "bullshit" is not very convincing in spite of your apparent belief that it is. It's a well known fact that artists throughout the ages have made mistakes in their representations of humans and animals in motion. We had to wait the invention of the cinematograph to correct those mistakes.
It's your opinion that people saw what they wanted to see but that's wrong because most people are incapable of drawing a human body from memory not even after years of training. That's what models are for, to supply the lack of visual memory of artists. So if you're incapable of remembering what a human body looks like to draw one then you'd be even less likely to correct a flawed one if you saw one. On the other hand you'd be capable of seeing that something is wrong. Like for instance I may be unable to cook a bouillabaisse myself but I am perfectly able to tell when one isn't up to par.

 

[Timo]

You're just stating an opinion different from mine

Which just happens to be the correct one. Deal with it - it's not negotiable. It's just how the world is, regardless of what either of us types here.

It's your opinion that people saw what they wanted to see but that's wrong because most people are incapable of drawing a human body from memory not even after years of training.

What nonsense is this? I said nothing about drawing. I can see what I want without any skill in drawing - my dreams don't require a degree in arts or crafts in order to appear convincing.

There's no such thing as the illusion appearing unconvincing: it's impossible by definition, as it's the illusion you have created to your personal liking. In theory, it might contain lots and lots of stick men, but Hollywood tends to portray dreams as photographically accurate (except when they have the time and money to do some mean animation).

It would be different if I were to critique somebody else's dream. Our heroes in "The Cage" aren't.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[locutus101]

Which just happens to be the correct one. Deal with it - it's not negotiable. It's just how the world is, regardless of what either of us types here.

What nonsense is this? I said nothing about drawing. I can see what I want without any skill in drawing - my dreams don't require a degree in arts or crafts in order to appear convincing.

There's no such thing as the illusion appearing unconvincing: it's impossible by definition, as it's the illusion you have created to your personal liking. In theory, it might contain lots and lots of stick men, but Hollywood tends to portray dreams as photographically accurate (except when they have the time and money to do some mean animation).

It would be different if I were to critique somebody else's dream. Our heroes in "The Cage" aren't.

Timo Saloniemi

It doesn't work. Dreams are something different. When you're dreaming your brain isn't working correctly. For instance you could be talking to people you know have been dead for a long time and not notice anything wrong. Or see someone transform into someone else and not even have second thoughts about it.
Chakotay is full of shit most of the time but he's right about lucid dreaming and that happened to me a few times as it happens to many people once in a while. You keep dreaming but at the same time you know that you are and it's when you start to notice that many things are wrong and not very realistic.
The people who were deceived weren't in a dream state, they were perfectly in possession of their faculties and reasoning abilities and would have been able to tell if there was something amiss in what they were seeing.

 

[Timo]

That's just the difference between Talosian dreams and human ones, apparently. Or then not. It's not as if Pike ever tests the limits of his dream in a systematic fashion or anything: he repeatedly accepts impossibilities with childlike ease. Where is his "possession of faculties" when he thinks his faraway horse is eating from his palm, or makes no pertinent questions when finding out he's an Orion slaver now?

His declaration that he thinks it's all an illusion is a very belated one at the scene where he tries to strangle the Talosian captor - despite Vina (another illusion in the analysis of any reasonable captive) outright telling him so much many times already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[locutus101]

That's just the difference between Talosian dreams and human ones, apparently. Or then not. It's not as if Pike ever tests the limits of his dream in a systematic fashion or anything: he repeatedly accepts impossibilities with childlike ease. Where is his "possession of faculties" when he thinks his faraway horse is eating from his palm, or makes no pertinent questions when finding out he's an Orion slaver now?

His declaration that he thinks it's all an illusion is a very belated one at the scene where he tries to strangle the Talosian captor - despite Vina (another illusion in the analysis of any reasonable captive) outright telling him so much many times already.

Timo Saloniemi

That's true but even when he realizes that he's being deceived he still can't see any flaws in what he's seeing. So it must be flawless. It reminds me of a novel by Sheckley The Dimension Of Miracles:
In it the main character named Carmody is sometimes being deceived by a predator into believing that some things he really wants to happen are happening. However as soon as he realizes that something is wrong the deception becomes very simplistic and only vaguely resembling to what he thought he was seeing.
That's very different from what happens to Pike. Even when he knows that he's seeing fake things, they still appear true to life to him.

 

[saddestmoon]

My pick on the big event: big space battle!!!!! Lotsa ships and pew-pew!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Well, the Talosians thought it was, but that doesn't make it true.

Well, they oughta know. They seemed to be right about most everything else they said, and they had no particular reason to lie to Pike at that point.

 

[JoeCabby]

I just watched Amok Time this weekend and found my pick for the "Event" that fuller is alluding to.

In Amok Time, they're on their way to Altair 6 for an inauguration ceremony for the president of a planet that has just gotten out of an interplanetary war. It's apparently important because …

Altair Six is no ordinary matter. That area is just putting itself together after a long interplanetary conflict. This inauguration will stabilise the entire Altair system. Our appearance there is a demonstration of friendship and strength which will cause ripples clear to the Klingon Empire.

The Altair system is important enough that both super powers would have a vested interest in how the war turns out. They're on their way to Vulcan so we at least know that it's close so bringing in Amanda would make sense. The war itself doesn't include the Klingons but they will be affected. Possibly some cold war allies type of deal so the Klingons could attempt to provide weapons, training or other help. Same with the Federation, they're outside parties to this alien war, but they have a vested interest in it so they provide help wherever they can. The cat and mouse storyline that was in Balance of Terror would definitely fit the bill here with both klingon and the federation trying to pull strings with the altaran's to gain an advantage. The war could definitely rage on for 10 years or so and end in the TOS time period.

The situation with Altair 6 is stressed as very important, but at the same time it's so vague that there's a lot of room for writers to explore. The beings who lived there are never seen or mentioned so they could create whole new Aliens. The cold war could also be simply a backdrop where "number one" explores the Altaran system during this war occasionally taking on missions that affect the outcome of this war.
Amok Time is also one of the highly rated classic episodes so it makes sense something vague and apparently so important like this would stick out in Bryan Fuller's memory and he'd want to expand on that.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

That's interesting, how you can take a throwaway line like that and run with it.

 

[JoeCabby]

Trust me, I could keep going but I stopped myself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I just watched Amok Time this weekend and found my pick for the "Event" that fuller is alluding to.

In Amok Time, they're on their way to Altair 6 for an inauguration ceremony for the president of a planet that has just gotten out of an interplanetary war. It's apparently important because …


The Altair system is important enough that both super powers would have a vested interest in how the war turns out. They're on their way to Vulcan so we at least know that it's close so bringing in Amanda would make sense. The war itself doesn't include the Klingons but they will be affected. Possibly some cold war allies type of deal so the Klingons could attempt to provide weapons, training or other help. Same with the Federation, they're outside parties to this alien war, but they have a vested interest in it so they provide help wherever they can. The cat and mouse storyline that was in Balance of Terror would definitely fit the bill here with both klingon and the federation trying to pull strings with the altaran's to gain an advantage. The war could definitely rage on for 10 years or so and end in the TOS time period.

The situation with Altair 6 is stressed as very important, but at the same time it's so vague that there's a lot of room for writers to explore. The beings who lived there are never seen or mentioned so they could create whole new Aliens. The cold war could also be simply a backdrop where "number one" explores the Altaran system during this war occasionally taking on missions that affect the outcome of this war.
Amok Time is also one of the highly rated classic episodes so it makes sense something vague and apparently so important like this would stick out in Bryan Fuller's memory and he'd want to expand on that.

I blame the Krell.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Damn, I was just about to post the same Altair VI theory! I was reading a transcript of the episode and that line popped out at me. That's my guess now, as well. Nice going, JoeCabby!