Equinox - Your Thoughts?

[sonak]

so seeing Voyager's captain turn into a self-righteous would-be murdering psycho who locks up her senior officers for having the nerve to call her on her criminal behavior didn't bother you?


See this is what I don't get. I guess it's "cool" to some to see Janeway act like this because it's "dark and gritty and stuff."


If this episode is an example of what some folks wanted Voyager to be MORE LIKE, count me out.

 

[DonIago]

In a way I'd argue that I'm more bothered by the way the crew -lets- her engage in such behavior.

I wanted to see the ship face more of a struggle to get home. I didn't want to see the captain turn into someone willing to torture others to make it happen.

 

[stj]

It is still amazing to see people who still think there is some sort of moral equation between Ransom and Janeway. They go so far as to simultaneous excuse Ransom's murders, while raving like madmen over Janeway's supposed excesses. There was no excuse for Chakotay's conniving in Ransom's murder spree. There was no logic in Tuvok ignoring the plight of Ransom's victims to worry about a worthless hulk like the Equinox. Ransom's torment of Seven of Nine has only the crudest, most superficial parallels to the interrogation of the criminal Lessing. The reprogramming of the Doctor and the abandonment of Voyager are crimes which are not even noticed!

What unspoken agenda drives posters into such absurdities?

 

[DonIago]

Provided you're referring to me, I'd point out that at no point did I indicate that I thought Equinox's crew were somehow innocent. Under normal circumstances I'd say throw them all in the brig. Courts Martial all around.

That being said, I'd say the same thing for Janeway, as I can't imagine that the Lessing interrogation followed Starfleet-approved procedures. I'm sure S31 would approve though.

 

[Vinkula]

I love that episode! My favourite part is (Believe or not...)

"Janeway to Ransom, surrender your ship" (Over Comm) XD

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Beasties were going to destroy the Equinox and Kill the crew. The equinox crew were going to hunt those beasties until they got killed. They needed another 67 beasties to get home and I just don't think the crew of the Equinox had the moxie to catch another 5 without being converted into space beastie stool.

The beasties didn't need saving.

Janeway might have limited the number of beasties killed, after that is, that she cockblocked their headshot which would have proved the final solution to the Equinox question, or maybe she didn't because the Voyager crewmen shot the frakk out of that school of space beasties.

She didn't save many beasties and she didn't save many starfleet crewmen. She prolonged and aggravated the situation even after she was told the truth, when really she was supposed to respectfully bow to the authority of the locals and let them take point.

I don't understand what good or benefit Janeway brought to this clusterfuck?

She saved the Equinox 5?

Bah humbug.

The beasties should have chased Voyager threatened and hounded them until the Equinox 5 were handed over for execution like Janeway promised. But apparantly they're stupid dopey animals.
.
Kathryn Janeway is a liar.

 

[sonak]

It is still amazing to see people who still think there is some sort of moral equation between Ransom and Janeway. They go so far as to simultaneous excuse Ransom's murders, while raving like madmen over Janeway's supposed excesses. There was no excuse for Chakotay's conniving in Ransom's murder spree. There was no logic in Tuvok ignoring the plight of Ransom's victims to worry about a worthless hulk like the Equinox. Ransom's torment of Seven of Nine has only the crudest, most superficial parallels to the interrogation of the criminal Lessing. The reprogramming of the Doctor and the abandonment of Voyager are crimes which are not even noticed!

What unspoken agenda drives posters into such absurdities?

obviously the "unspoken agenda" is that posters who are critical of Janeway's actions can't stand the idea of a woman in command.

I mean that's what you meant when you oh-so-subtly referred to an unspoken agenda, right?


At any rate, if that's what you meant or not, I wasn't "comparing" anybody's actions to anybody else's, Janeway's attempted murder of Lessing by itself, with no comparison to any other actions in the episode was criminal enough.


He was a criminal yes, but that doesn't mean Janeway could just do whatever she wanted to him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway isn't a woman.

She's a lot of people.

This time?

She's two guys.

Joe and Brannon.

Mulgrew is a meat puppet voicing the inarticulate supposition on morality from two people with penises.

It's not a vagenda the men folk are at war with.

It's a simple cockfight.

Now if we want to talk about scripts written by women?

The pros and cons of Jeri Taylor?

Sexism, here?

For gods sake!

Not everything is so black and white and one dimensional.

Sexism

How small you think we are.

 

[froot]

so seeing Voyager's captain turn into a self-righteous would-be murdering psycho who locks up her senior officers for having the nerve to call her on her criminal behavior didn't bother you?


See this is what I don't get. I guess it's "cool" to some to see Janeway act like this because it's "dark and gritty and stuff."


If this episode is an example of what some folks wanted Voyager to be MORE LIKE, count me out.

When people are saying that, they mean like what happened to the Equinox (partially destroyed, desperate crew, etc.) not Janeway's actions.

Problem with that is Voyager would have had to be something closer to a Nova-class like the Equinox for that to really happen. The Intrepid was state-of-the-art and all that, even if it was on the smaller end as far as starships go.

Janeway was wrong. She shouldn't have interrogated Lessing like that. He should have gone right to the brig and stayed there. However, her intent was never to murder him. Whether or not that would have happened by accident, though, we'll never know since Chakotay rightly intervened. I would hope Starfleet called her on this either in the transmissions or when they got back. But she was only aiming to make the guy piss his pants and talk. From Lessing's POV, the whole thing looked like a Good Cop/Bad Cop routine.

stj has a point - if my supposed ally left me out to rot and my crewmen to die after saving them, I'd be pretty damn mad too. They were trying -and did- draw obvious parallels between the two, but Ransom was dickish on another level.

 

[stj]

Chakotay let the Equinox escape, rather than risk Lessing receive his just desserts for his part in multiple murders. Wanting Lessing in the brig is wanting Ransom and his band to escape. The absurdly convenient appearance of another set of aliens who could intercede was dishonest plotting designed to falsely exculpate Chakotay. The only thing in this episode that is phonier is the Ransom redemption.

The idea that Janeway was required to murder more aliens to protect Lessing is preposterous. If anything, Janeway was required to surrender the likes of Lessing. It was Chakotay who committed a criminal act.

The unspoken assumption that messes people up on this episode is the psychotic "idea" that Janeway is going off the rails, that there is grounds for Chakotay to mutiny, that Janeway is obsessive for chasing a gang of mass murderers in their course of committing even more murders.

Imagine the scene plays if it was Max in the chair and Tom Paris who saved the murdering scumbag's sorry ass. Suppose it was Neelix who objected to agreeing to surrender the Equinox to the aliens.

In other words, try to actually think.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

ROCK: You are the survivors. The others have run off. It would seem that evil retreats when forcibly confronted. However, you have failed to demonstrate to me any other difference between your philosophies. Your good and your evil use the same methods, achieve the same results. Do you have an explanation?
KIRK: You established the methods and the goals.
ROCK: For you to use as you chose.
KIRK: What did you offer the others if they won?
ROCK: What they wanted most. Power.
KIRK: You offered me the lives of my crew.

Janeway risked the lives of her crew to come to the aid of another Federation ship, another Federation crew. She didn't know the man who Captained that ship, but she had heard of him and what she heard was favorable.

Janeway used her resources to help repair that ship, and devise an improved shield generator to protect both ships.

And while she was doing this, while she was housing and feeding this Captain and his crew, they were lying to her.

While her crew was bonding with his, laughing about old Academy days and pranks, his crew was actively working against her crew, plotting to steal the very protection that Voyager was using for BOTH their benefits.

While she wanted to trust that famed Captain, she just couldn't and sent her own operative into a research lab that she learned was purposefully contaminated by his crew to keep their sins a secret.

And when she confronted that "famed" Captain... he first begs for his crew, then threatens hers.

JANEWAY: It's never easy, but if we turn our backs on our principles, we stop being human. I'm putting an end to your experiments and you are hereby relieved of your command. You and your crew will be confined to quarters.
RANSOM: Please, show them leniency. They were only following my orders.
JANEWAY: Their mistake.
RANSOM: It's a long way home, Captain.

And when she tries to imprison him in their "quarters", he leads a revolt steals that shield generator, disables her ship as he returns to his and warps away, leaving her at the mercy of a species intent on killing bipeds.

They aren't even picky WHICH bipeds they kill!

And they DID kill on Voyager.

KIM:"...Two dead, thirteen wounded. We took heavy damage to the engines."

But Ransom did more than allow these aliens the opportunity to KILL her crewmen, he captured one. One that once caused Janeway to go into the heart of Unimatrix Zero to bring home.

Lessing is LUCKY she didn't know what he was doing to Seven on his ship.

Janeway MISTAKENLY thought Lessing would cave when she placed him in the cargo bay and dropped the forcefields.

If she knew her protege was being tortured by a newly evil EMH, I wouldn't be surprised if the Captain wouldn't have done the same even IF she knew Lessing wouldn't cave.

Does that excuse her?

Oh no.

But it does inform your decision on those who choose to judge her.


KIRK-Janeway What did you offer the others if they won?
ROCK: What they wanted most... (A quicker way home).
KIRK-Janeway You offered me the lives of my crew.

Chakotay, her ballast in the storm, could see beyond the anger that clouded her vision, and he tried to turn her. Tuvok too, saw what was happening and tried to turn her.

Eventually, like all "good" Captains, she eventually turned herself from the path to destruction. Like Daniel Webster and the Devil, she looked into the abyss, and was able to walk away. And perhaps, by walking a mile in these shoes, she was able to understand how easy it was for a Starfleet Officer to fall short of her ideals.

RANSOM: .... We'd found our salvation. How could we ignore it?
JANEWAY: By adhering to the oath you took as Starfleet officers to seek out life, not destroy it.
RANSOM: It's easy to cling to principles when you're standing on a vessel with its bulkheads intact, manned by a crew that's not starving.
JANEWAY: It's never easy, but if we turn our backs on our principles, we stop being human...

Perhaps THIS experience bolstered her resolve in "The Void", to follow Starfleet Principles, no matter what the circumstances.

Still.

Voyager is damaged.

Relationships are damaged.

But repairs... "repairs" are coming along.

JANEWAY: How's the crew?
CHAKOTAY: A lot of frayed nerves. Neelix is organizing a potluck to help boost morale.
JANEWAY: Will I see you there?
CHAKOTAY: I'm replicating the salad.
JANEWAY: I'll bring the croutons. Chakotay. You know, you may have had good reason to stage a little mutiny of your own.
CHAKOTAY: The thought had occurred to me, but that would have been crossing the line.
JANEWAY: Will you look at that. All these years, all these battles, this thing's never fallen down before.
CHAKOTAY: Let's put it back up where it belongs.




ROCK: You are the survivors. The others have run off. It would seem that evil retreats when forcibly confronted. However, you have failed to demonstrate to me any other difference between your philosophies. Your good and your evil use the same methods, achieve the same results. Do you have an explanation?
Janeway: You established the methods and the goals.
ROCK: For you to use as you chose.
Janeway: What did you offer the others if they won?
ROCK: What they wanted most... (A quicker way home).
Janeway: You offered me the lives of my crew.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Extenuating circumstances?

That's a thumb on the scale for sentencing not verdict.

10 years in jail for stealing a loaf of bread.

We've sat through that musical.

The Savage Curtain.

Nice episode.

Intent.

That's part of the conviction process.

Good.

Malicious intent vs. culpability vs. accepting the consequences of your actions.

Good people do bad things for good reasons.

Still collateral and legal fallout just the same as if the same crime was committed by a good person for good reasons as a bad person for bad reasons.

Really doesn't the quality of ones acts redefine ones character?

Doesn't doing bad things make you a bad person?

Being a good person, believing you are a hero doesn't give you a free pass to commit bad acts.

From first principles.

Ransom seemed to be a starfleet officer being attacked by wild animals in open space.

No reason not to help him even though she was completely ignorant about what was really going on, and under attack herself.

It's almost impossible for a Starfleet Captain to go crazy.

A superb vetting process.

(Supposedly... Though at the time this was explained in TOS there were only 12 heavy battle cruisers in the fleet, and later when Worf said that his Psych test was scary before Wesley fumbled through his Psych test, the loss of 38 ships to the Borg seemed catastrophic. But "now" by the end of DS9 there seems to be thousands of ships and Trillions of potential casualties in any attack by the baguys. More room at the top means that less sane/qualified people are being allowed to make it to Captain. In TOS, there were ten million cadets trying to one day be 1 of 12 Starship captains, by TNG it was Billions of cadets trying to land hundreds of captaincies, but by DS9 there were trillions of Federation Citizens wondering if they could get a fanciful job of commanding one of the thousands of Starships exploring and guarding the frontier.)

So first she figured out Ransom was an asshole.

Then she figured out the beasties were thinking and talking probably the equivalent of the Native Americans before whitie turned up. Nomadic hunter gathers, but in space.

The Beasties were intelligent enough to tell her to bugger off because this was their space and janeway's own laws insist that she obeys the laws of the locals who have no interest in being tricked into worshipping Kim as a god.

The episode came to a point where Janeway should have cut her losses and walked away.

And if Ransom hadn't taken Seven of Nine she might have considered it a possibility to let the space beasties hunt down the assholes picking them off for fuel, because lets face it, the deal she made with them was a huge devious deception to defraud the space beasties of their interpretation of justice. She was never going to hand over Equinox and her crew if she found them first which made her illegible for execution for helping spirit away dastardly criminals just like she did in Devore space.

 

[2 of 10]

The Prime Directive isn't just about the here and now. Saving a benign species now that in 500 years will turn into a despotic tyrant who murders a thousand races while building empire is a good thing or a bad thing? The Prime Directive is about limiting liability toward the UNFORSEEN for the next FOREVER.

Get your point, I am of the opinion that even if you were totally pro-life and then had the chance abort Adolf Hitler
I assume that you would then have no problems having
the abort done...We go to no less of an authority then Spock himself, In the "Wrath of Kahn"; Spock state that the needs of the many exceed the needs of the few...

Resistance is Futile

 

[Guy Gardener]

Actually no.

You have to save Hitler.

Without Hitler, world war 2 was still coming, and the same racist and political tones towards genocide and world domination would have come about, but if Germany actually had sane and competent people at the top with diplomatic and military training set about towards achieving practical goals, Germany would now cover half of Europe and everything would be insidiously different.

Tapestry dude, picking at threads without a thought towards consequences, and it's all going to unravel.

Besides, even if you stopped WWII and the megadeath of combatants and noncombatants (on both sides), that would have meant an extention of the great depression without the a war ecomony creating jobs and the absence of any conflict to deplete the surplus population woud shift the breeding options and life choices of the millions who are supposed to be dead against the billions who's lives have just unwittingly been made harder (or easier?).

Hitler, and all the horrible things he orchestrated, made the world we live in today.

Thankyou Hitler.

 

[kimc]

In other words, try to actually think.

Let's think about having a discussion without getting personal about it. Thanks.

 

[stj]

^^^What a foolish thing to say. Repeated and seemingly interminable "discussions" of this episode consistently fail to discuss the most obvious things about this episode, starting with, is there anything but high camp to be derived from an episode where killing people makes the ship go faster? Or how weak the plotting is when it takes convenient space aliens to salvage the plot? Or how stupid it is that Ransom's visions of Seven of Nine restore his conscience? Or even how BSG's Head Caprica was swiped from this episode?

The suggestion that remark is any bar to discussion is bad manners and poor judgment.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Head Caprica?

I think it';s funny that they already went through this in The next Emanation.

Janeway decided it was bad karma to use mummy corpses for fuel.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

^^^What a foolish thing to say. Repeated and seemingly interminable "discussions" of this episode consistently fail to discuss the most obvious things about this episode, starting with, is there anything but high camp to be derived from an episode where killing people makes the ship go faster? Or how weak the plotting is when it takes convenient space aliens to salvage the plot? Or how stupid it is that Ransom's visions of Seven of Nine restore his conscience? Or even how BSG's Head Caprica was swiped from this episode?

The suggestion that remark is any bar to discussion is bad manners and poor judgment.

You might want to be nice to the mods. They just try to keep this a friendly discussion.

 

[Akiraprise]

^^^What a foolish thing to say. Repeated and seemingly interminable "discussions" of this episode consistently fail to discuss the most obvious things about this episode, starting with, is there anything but high camp to be derived from an episode where killing people makes the ship go faster? Or how weak the plotting is when it takes convenient space aliens to salvage the plot? Or how stupid it is that Ransom's visions of Seven of Nine restore his conscience? Or even how BSG's Head Caprica was swiped from this episode?

The suggestion that remark is any bar to discussion is bad manners and poor judgment.

Feel free to PM either myself or kimc about the comment but no further discussion on the mod action in this thread. Thanks.

 

[2 of 10]

Actually no.

You have to save Hitler.

Without Hitler, world war 2 was still coming, and the same racist and political tones towards genocide and world domination would have come about, but if Germany actually had sane and competent people at the top with diplomatic and military training set about towards achieving practical goals, Germany would now cover half of Europe and everything would be insidiously different.

Tapestry dude, picking at threads without a thought towards consequences, and it's all going to unravel.

Besides, even if you stopped WWII and the megadeath of combatants and noncombatants (on both sides), that would have meant an extention of the great depression without the a war ecomony creating jobs and the absence of any conflict to deplete the surplus population woud shift the breeding options and life choices of the millions who are supposed to be dead against the billions who's lives have just unwittingly been made harder (or easier?).

Hitler, and all the horrible things he orchestrated, made the world we live in today.

Thankyou Hitler.

You are totally correct on all your points, without the assination of Archduck Ferdinan which led to WW1 there is no WW2 and without WW2 no Greek Civil war, no unrest in Italy with the commies trying to make Italy another communist country, the French do not go back to SE Aisa, which means no VietNam, The Russian don't cruise into Korea, which means no Korean War. All the technology that
came about because of the war(s) our Space program would be year behind what it was, what an alt timeline that would be. It does raise an interesting dilemma...
TO 86 Mien Furher or to not 86 Mien Furher that is the
question...