Episodes that are generally considered "bad" that you actually like
- Thread starter GeordiFan
- Start date
I can't say I enjoyed either episode, but they both had small saving graces.
1. Let He Who is Without Sin had that one great Worf/Dax scene where he finally explains why he's such an uptight stick in the mud. One of the central conflicts in Worf's character, stuck in as "Piller filler." in an unrelated, light comedic episode.
2. As an adult and a parent, the many scenes in Time's Orphan where Miles and Keiko talk about Molly ring pretty true to me. I feel a genuine sense of emotional pathos there. Although their decision at the end of the episode to send Future Molly back to live alone back in time reset buttoning at its absolute worst.
I vaguely remember "Time's Orphan"; I don't remember ". . . Without Sin" at all. DS9 was not my favorite ST series, even before it got fixated on the Dominion War and Bajoran mysticism.
Episodes that I found overrated:
1. TOS City on the Edge of Forever. I even bought Harlan Ellison's book to try and understand what all the fuss was about. At least the episode as filmed wasn't as bad as the original scripts ( drug-dealing on the Enterprise etc ) but it has always remained 'meh to me. At least I made a profit reselling the book on eBay.
2. DS9 The Way of the Warrior. A friend excitedly loaned me the two-parter on VHS and I was underwhelmed. DS9 became an ass-kicking-machine and all the bridge crew were suddenly warrior heroes. It marked the decline of DS9 for me as it tried to sex itself up to compete with That Other Space Station Series and I drifted away from the series as it became more focused on the Dominion War.
3. TNG Yesterday's Enterprise. It should have been a poignant story of a crew going back to face their fate but it just didn't click with me. It shattered my suspension of belief, that the same TNG crew ( including Guinan ) would be on the same ship despite utterly different history.
1. TOS City on the Edge of Forever. I even bought Harlan Ellison's book to try and understand what all the fuss was about. At least the episode as filmed wasn't as bad as the original scripts ( drug-dealing on the Enterprise etc ) but it has always remained 'meh to me. At least I made a profit reselling the book on eBay.
2. DS9 The Way of the Warrior. A friend excitedly loaned me the two-parter on VHS and I was underwhelmed. DS9 became an ass-kicking-machine and all the bridge crew were suddenly warrior heroes. It marked the decline of DS9 for me as it tried to sex itself up to compete with That Other Space Station Series and I drifted away from the series as it became more focused on the Dominion War.
3. TNG Yesterday's Enterprise. It should have been a poignant story of a crew going back to face their fate but it just didn't click with me. It shattered my suspension of belief, that the same TNG crew ( including Guinan ) would be on the same ship despite utterly different history.
And yet the Mirror universe TOS had the same concept
Seeing Yesterday's Enterprise in high definition made me enjoy it much more; I used to feel it was a bit overrated. Watching it on bluray I could appreciate David Carson's stylish direction, and I thought Riker's subtle distain for Picard gave the show some energy.
For me it's easily the best episode of TNG. Easily.
I must admit I enjoy "Alamarain" from Move Along Home, not because it's good, but to watch the actors struggle to make the little game seem meaningful.
There are many episodes of Voyager that are considered bad but I really like, such as Q and the Grey and Coda. When Janeway said "Go Back to Hell, Coward", I cheered. I thought that was badass from the captain. I also didn't know until I joined the Trek online community that Q and the Grey was considerd bad. I mean it had a cute puppy and one of the best lines of the series about said puppy. What's so bad about that.
My favorite Next Gen season. It had vitality they lost later.
You mean when the Q lady says: "I wasn't talking about the puppy."
Yeah. That was a fun exchange.
Yes, the Hirogen in "Tsunkatse" was J.G. Hertzler, who also played Martok on DS9. He was also the Klingon defense lawyer in "Judgment" and, working under other stage names, also appeared as the Vulcan captain of the USS Saratoga at the beginning of "Emissary" and as Laas the Changeling in "Chimera."
Speaking of Star Trek's variety, I was recently thinking about how Doctor Who is often praised as a show with limitless possibilities. And while it's true that the TARDIS allows them to go literally anywhere & anywhen, the story format tends to be in a much narrower range. The point was driven home to me recently when H&I reran Voyager's "Lineage." That episode is many things-- a morality play about bio-ethics, a commentary on the experience of ethnic minorities, a melodrama about Tom & B'Elanna's marriage, a flashback to B'Elanna's childhood. And there isn't a monster or a genuine villain in sight. Doctor Who would never try to pull off something that quiet or that personal. (Closest Doctor Who ever came to a chamber piece like that is "The Edge of Destruction," which is still more the cliche of spatial-anomaly-turns-our-heroes-paranoid, which Trek has also done with episodes like "Strange New World," "Singularity," & "Dramatis Personae.")
Agreed. My only real quibble with "Shades of Gray" is that it's only Season 2, so they haven't really built up enough material to do a clip show justice. But then, I'm a sucker for nostalgia and I generally love clip shows. I'm kinda surprised that they didn't do more considering how long their seasons always were. (Compare to Stargate SG-1/Atlantis, which did 7 clip shows over 15 seasons. And then Earth: Final Conflict did 2 goddamn clip shows in a single season!)
I love that final shot of "These Are the Voyages." I also think the episode was fine overall, although I do question the decision to focus the Enterprise finale on Commander Riker & Counselor Troi. Also, at no point did the episode justify messing with the continuity of "The Pegasus," nor did they ever convince me for a second that Riker & Troi looked anything like they did 11 years ago.
I love the Female Q stuff from "The Q & the Gray." However, the war in the Q Continuum strains credulity and certainly makes them look far less mysterious & interesting than they did in "Death Wish."
I didn't realize that anyone didn't like "Q-Less." Granted, Q never really had the chemistry with Sisko that he did with Picard & Janeway, but I thought it was solid. All it took was one punch in the face and then Q never bothered them again!
"Unnatural Selection" isn't bad but it is kind of a rehash of "The Deadly Years." I've never heard anyone say a bad word against "Time Squared." Come to think of it, I've never heard an ill word about "The Royale" either. I think it's one of those silly episodes that everyone just assumes that the rest of fandom hates but everyone I've ever heard from seems to be as charmed by it as I am.
I think it comes down to the fact that the crew are willing to leave Tom & Harry in mortal danger in order to protect a bunch of fictional holodeck characters.
Season 2 also continues to have the ugly Season 1 uniforms. It's easier to just make a blanket statement that the show didn't get good until they changed the uniforms in Season 3.
It's also got Jadzia & Leeta in some amazing swimwear! Apart from Worf's monologue about his childhood, it's best to just watch that episode with the sound off. (Also, why didn't Worf go to prison at the end of the episode? He sabotaged Risa's weather control systems!)
H&I just reran that episode a few weeks ago. I had forgotten how icky that opening scene was between Quark & the daboo girl. Of course, for all of Quark's comedy antics, we also often forget about the 2 season 1 episodes where he's guilty of felony murder-- "The Passenger" & "Vortex."
G
Gul Sengosts
Guest
Half a Life (caution: spoilers ahead).
It's usually condemned for the "stupid" tradition of having people die at 60, and how arbitrary the choice of that age is. I think this tradition pales in comparison to a lot of the idiocy and lunacy that humans have come up with in actual history. As for the arbitrary choice, well to pick a certain age in law is always arbitrary, be it legal age or pensionable age.
The cultural conflict takes place on a very personal level this time and imo goes deeper than usual in TNG, with development happening on both sides, Lwaxana's very understandable anger at the Prime Directive, and some fairly tense emotional scenes. And just when she convinced him, it turns out it's not that simple at all. Her acceptance in the end is a pretty strong character moment.
It's also the first time Lwaxana is given actual depth, it marks the point when she's not merely comedic relief anymore, quite the contrary. Her display is criticised as overly melodramatic, but well she is a very emotional character with a tendency to melodrama so it kinda fits the character, and I didn't find it so overdone as to be silly. Given the situation, I can understand how angry, frustrated, desperate she must be.
This episode is 8-9/10 territory in my opinion.
It's usually condemned for the "stupid" tradition of having people die at 60, and how arbitrary the choice of that age is. I think this tradition pales in comparison to a lot of the idiocy and lunacy that humans have come up with in actual history. As for the arbitrary choice, well to pick a certain age in law is always arbitrary, be it legal age or pensionable age.
The cultural conflict takes place on a very personal level this time and imo goes deeper than usual in TNG, with development happening on both sides, Lwaxana's very understandable anger at the Prime Directive, and some fairly tense emotional scenes. And just when she convinced him, it turns out it's not that simple at all. Her acceptance in the end is a pretty strong character moment.
It's also the first time Lwaxana is given actual depth, it marks the point when she's not merely comedic relief anymore, quite the contrary. Her display is criticised as overly melodramatic, but well she is a very emotional character with a tendency to melodrama so it kinda fits the character, and I didn't find it so overdone as to be silly. Given the situation, I can understand how angry, frustrated, desperate she must be.
This episode is 8-9/10 territory in my opinion.
Yeah, I really liked the episode, especially Timicin's dignity throughout the episode, whether he was calmly accepting his fate or trying to be a leader to his people. And I found Lwaxana's reactions entirely understandable. Real emotion isn't supposed to be pretty.
Plust it's one of the few "the good guys lose" episodes of TNG.
Plust it's one of the few "the good guys lose" episodes of TNG.
Half a Life was the first Peter Allan Fields episode. He had a short writing career in Trek, but he went on to do Cost of Living on TNG (the other Lwaxana episode I love) and then famously The Inner Light. Then on DS9 he did 10 episodes, including Duet, Necessary Evil, Blood Oath, and In the Pale Moonlight.
There's no doubt in my mind he's the best Trek writer, hands down. It's a shame he didn't get a chance to do more. I think he's quite old now - his first writing credits were back in the mid 1960s - so I'm guessing he doesn't have it in him to come back to Trek.
Sirs Paul McCartney and Mick Jagger are still rocking....
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