ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Unicron:
To be honest, I think the majority of people who may truly hate ENT don't post here, so I don't see the cause for alarm. The point is that a person who hates ENT should have the right to post here provided that they do so constructively, just as a person who dislikes Stargate or Star Wars has the right to express that opinion in a thread on that topic. You seem to be worried that people who hate ENT are making the forum negative by virtue of their dislike, yet asking that people should be allowed to post in ENT only if they consider ENT good. How does that encourage people to respect the opinions of others?

Look at it this way. Do you have friends that you don't like? I am not talking about disagreement on different issues. I mean don't like or hate. What about do you have a spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend that you hate and hate to be around yet still are. The have words for people like that and none of them are good.

I am not saying you have to love Enterprise but at least like something about it. But this is an argument I am not gonna win, so I would like the people that love Buffy and/or Firefly to reccommend a message board to me. I will take Lindley advice and start watching both shows in detail and go to these board and come up with will thought out reason and observations why these shows are awful. I want to see if I will be received as nicely there as people are here.

 

[Unicron]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^ If I dislike someone that much, then clearly I don't consider them a friend. Even so, I have a thick skin and I do not make a habit of insulting people unless they truly do something to earn it. We have disagreed before, but I would not go out of my way to insult you for that. You have many good opinions that I respect, even if I do not share them.

And as I said above, I think the majority of people who post here do like ENT to some extent, some more than others. Name one person other than Stewey, whom I mention because he draws the most opinions for his criticism, who posts here regularly with the purpose of complaining about ENT.

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Guys, I think it's about time to table the discussion of who has a right to post in the forum, because the answer is right in the board rules. The reason we discussed it at length was because I'd hoped we could come to an understanding about it. But, ultimately, we, mods and members alike, must adhere to these rules:

from the TrekBBS rules:
Show Criticism: It's fine to say a certain aspect of Star Trek is bad, as long as you don't insult the people who think otherwise, and as long as you actually back up what you say. Jumping in and shouting "Kirk sucks!" is not an acceptable form of constructive criticism.

That means, that as long as critics of the show aren't just saying "this sucks" or "that sucks" and leaving it at that, they've got a right to be there. And honestly, guys--look at the folks in this thread! Not a one of them does that.

As Bonz says, what it comes down to is courtesy. There is no reason why everyone here can't treat each other with respect. Everyone in this thread is intelligent, thoughful, and brings so much to this forum.

The fact of the matter is, I think I could count the number of true "gushers" and true "bashers" on one hand each. As Dennis and Lindley point out, it's impossible to come to a consensus even on what grades mean--one person's A+ can be another's A-. It's all subjective. I really wish we could lose the wretched basher/gusher labels because it's so unfair to try to label someone when their opinion on the show varies from week to week (even if it's from A- to A+, or from F to D-). Even fans and critics are imperfect (though much, much preferrable) because everyone here is a fan (of Trek) and a critic (in that we're all evaluating the show).

It will take some time to see what this thread has accomplished, if anything. I hope it's at least given people a chance to air their differences and grievances, and hopefully listen to some others' opinions as well.

I'll leave the thread open a while longer, because I'd love to hear some last thoughts from everyone. After it's closed (probably sometime this week), we'll give it a month or two and probably have a "state of the forum" discussion to see how things are. I also plan to take some of the highlights on the thread and pin them at the top of the forum as a reminder post.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Much as I applaud the intent of any mediation efforts wherever they might arise, I don't think this thread has really accomplished anything except to allow those with entrenched opinions to justify them at length on either side.

Mediation is successful when both sides move to the middle, and this has not happened the way I see it.

So, good intentions aside, ultimately lots of sound and fury (including myself), signifying nothing.

I'll still ignore constant F and D- minus givers who never have and never will, until I see that snowball in hell, enjoy Enterprise, and enjoy the balanced critisism and praise I come accross, occassionally joining the discussion.

And yes, the A++++++ crowd gets tiring too, but they don't evoke negativity, at least not to me, because I enjoy Enterprise, having doled out grades ranging from C- to A+. So thanks Top41 for the effort, but certainly minds haven't been changed, and when all is said and done, venting really doesn't accomplish much in the way of mediation.

But then there's alway something to be said for clearing the air, I guess.

 

[Unicron]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I agree, Top and Borgmininister, and Top I applaud your patience with all of this.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:
I have given example, after example, after example of why it totally goes against common sense to have people allowed to post when they hate the show. Any reasonable person would agree, but so many here disagree. It is not surprising since most people around here or anti-anything that the average reasonable person does, like argue about a damn TV show and people that watch that damn TV when they don't like it. We all have problems.

But surely Galactus there comes a time when you just have to let it go

It's fairly obvious that

(a) You're never going to get an answer that satisfies you as to this behaviour

(b) the people you are questioning aren't going to "see the light" from your posts and go away

and

(c) the board rules allow for everybody regardless of their opinion to come here and talk about the show

And even if we did have a policy whereby we disallow the negativity - exactly where are we drawing the line? Are people who don't like every single Star Trek show to some degree not allowed on the board at all or are we supposed to encode the place so folks are only banned from specific depending on their tastes.

What happens if these people finally see an episode they like - will they get unbanned from this forum and are then allowed to discuss the show - or are single instances not allowed because of general hate (again where are we drawing the line here and how are we supposed to police it). And the reverse is true - what about the gushers who don't like the new direction of the season and are starting to dislike all of these episodes? Are they getting kicked off until the show changes direction again?

------------------------------

The easiest thing is too accept that folks have the right to post here for whatever reason they choose and if the forum is largely negative there's nothing to stop you countering with some postive threads.

The onus on bettering the forum is in all our hands

(a) look at the way you post

- are you getting the point you want to make across?
- am I being insulting while getting my point across?

(b) other posters

- if you have a problem with other posts notify the mods
- don't respond to posts you have objections too or posters that tend to get you steamed
- am I being oversensitive?

(c) the mods

- talk to us if you feel there's a problem we aren't addressing (we take PM's, email, ICQ) - for that matter if you can do so politely take it up personally with the poster you have an issue with
- talk to us if you feel there's a way to foster more community spirit in here by fun threads etc.

The board is only going to get better if we all put the effort in. This thread has been a great start and I think it's helped some but it's no good if in another couple of months we're back at square one again.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

"If you don't like the show, don't watch it."

"If you don't watch the show, how can you criticise it?"

End result --> Criticism is driven away.

The more consistent the criticism is, the faster it's driven away.

 

[Pindar]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

If the forum was only open to people who felt a certain way about Enterprise, there would be no point in posting.

TPTB could save themselves a lot of bandwidth by just posting a new gushfest everyday for "The Real Fans" to come and gloat over.

Regardless of how you feel about what other people post, and it can be irritating at times, you can't dictate what their opinion should be.

If all you want is to sit and read a bunch of messages all saying how good Enterprise is find another board.

If you find you don't like what certain posters have to say, don't read their posts, or like me search them out and laugh at the inevitability of it all.

With so many people expresing their opinions on one subject I am surprised that there is as much consensus of opinion as there is.

I remember when ENT discussions were taking part only in Future of Trek, and over the course of the last few years the ENT forum has had its ups and downs but at the moment I think that the forum is in pretty good shape.

And in closing I'd just like to say be good to yourself and each other.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...

 

[Pindar]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Borgminister:
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round...

All day long dude.

 

[NX-01 Plumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
"If you don't like the show, don't watch it."

"If you don't watch the show, how can you criticise it?"

End result --> Criticism is driven away.

The more consistent the criticism is, the faster it's driven away.

Raz, I think that you genuinely (or perhaps disingenuously) don't get the point. The point is not "If you don't like the show, don't watch it." Rather it is: "if you (don't take this personally, Raz) disagree with the show's premise, do not find that it has any redeeming qualities, hate the actors, hate the Akira-prise, wish that the series was cancelled, call the series Enterfake, etc. you probably should not be watching it because (i) you're inflicting unnecessary pain on yourself (which, if one is a masochist, may be what they're looking for), (ii) you're keeping the ratings artificially high and (iii) you're probably in this forum to troll people who actually enjoy some episodes or part of the show (and again, if that's how one gets their jollies that's fine, but against board rules). (Oh, and in passing, how is this different from if you don't like what's being said in a thread or by a poster, ignore it?)

"If you don't watch the show, how can you criticise it?" Well, there's nothing wrong with that statement, but the first part of your argument is not valid.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I think most posters in this forum would agree that criticism is welcome and oftentimes warranted. Unmitigated and unbridled negativity for the sake of negativity is what is intolerable.

What pisses me off is not a well taken argument from Ptrope or you or others criticizing the weak points of an episode, but people whose avatars openly call for the cancellation of a show and people who trumpet with glee each week's ratings as the doom of ENT (and frankly, while we're at it those that see in every little upwards bump in ratings a groundswell that will eventually make ENT one of the top-rated shows).

What pisses me off most, though, is that the mods cannot make the difference between criticism and trolling because they hide themselves behind the "everybody is entitled to their opinion, all opinions are valid, if you disagree with someone's opinion prove them wrong" mantra.

We are a community on this board and if certain members of this community manage to piss off a significant portion of the posters and a thread like this one is required to try to ease some of the palpable tensions, then someone is not doing their job. Although, I cannot but applaud the calls for civility and good "citizenship", there is a point where that is not enough and if warnings and bans are required, so be it.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by NX-01 Plumber:
What pisses me off is not a well taken argument from Ptrope or you or others criticizing the weak points of an episode, but people whose avatars openly call for the cancellation of a show and people who trumpet with glee each week's ratings as the doom of ENT (and frankly, while we're at it those that see in every little upwards bump in ratings a groundswell that will eventually make ENT one of the top-rated shows).

Don't worry, that pisses me off as well. But nothing is ever done, so why should I expend the energy caring?

I used to care. I used to make an effort to point out who I thought were the obvious trolls. I even got warned for losing it over one specific poster's moronic repetition. He still posts in the same mindless style even today; noone cares. Nobody did anything then, and I highly doubt anyone will do anything now, so I can't be fucked caring.

All I do care about is that I have a little place to soapbox my opinion without being told to take it elsewhere just because. Or have morons speculate on my motivations for disliking the show. Nothing pisses me off more than the pathetic losers who can't or won't rise to the occasion, but instead take the cheapest shot possible and duck out.

Either respond, or don't, but fuck off with the cheap shots. Said it before, and will probably say it again.

What pisses me off most, though, is that the mods cannot make the difference between criticism and trolling because they hide themselves behind the "everybody is entitled to their opinion, all opinions are valid, if you disagree with someone's opinion prove them wrong" mantra.

Exactly. But IMO it goes both ways - there are people who beleive Enterprise does no wrong and are so very fast in pointing out the failings of everything else in order to excuse their little pet show. But that's not trolling either.. it's expressing an opinion.

We are a community on this board and if certain members of this community manage to piss off a significant portion of the posters and a thread like this one is required to try to ease some of the palpable tensions, then someone is not doing their job.

*applauds*

You have hit the nail on the head. Were this forum being policed properly this thread would never have been needed. There should be no attempt at "mediation" - I mean, what the fuck are moderators for, anyway?

But instead we have a forum which really is divided into two camps - with a bunch of poor suckers in the middle getting their conversations quickly derailed and turned into snipe fests between the extremes who aren't gonna be changing "the other side's" opinion anytime soon. And the mods just don't step in and do anything, because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The goal is certainly laudable. It's just not IMO achievable. There's a thread in QS&F about driving people away from the boards, sometimes I can't help wondering if the mods are scared that moderation is what drives people away. But in my opinion it's not moderation that makes people get pissed off and leave.. it's the lack thereof, it's trolling and baiting run rampant that make people throw up their hands and say "fuck this forum".

I don't really bother posting anymore. I'll let you guess why. Though I should add that the Enterprise forum probably isn't as bad as one might infer from my words - then again, forums do seem nicer when you don't post in them for ages.

 

[NX-01 Plumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Good God!?! We agree on everything!? It's a lovefest!

Quick, mods, close this thread, we wouldn't want any of this [gasp] "reasonable discussion" to pollute the ENT board.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

*pulls gun*

wut choo say?

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I think one of the board's biggest problems is this imaginary gusher/basher divide. This split is one of the most counterproductive developments this board has seen, IMHO. It reduces opinions to two sides and gives people a quick tool for dismissing differing points of view. I don't know if you can warn for that, but it might be nice. Or extremely time consuming.

I think the 'shipper factions aren't helpful, either, but those disputs for the most part seem to stay in the 'shipper debate threads. And I stay out of them; not my cup of green tea.

I do think the modding is better lately. The mods are in an unenviable position.

Here's a suggestion. Maybe close this particular moderation thread and start a new one, perhaps a "community" thread for people to bring up concerns and suggestions. I think the thread itself has been quite productive, but the debate of the last five or so pages has gotten heated. Dunno how much that would accomplish, but it would give people a nice shiny thread to dirty up.

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
You have hit the nail on the head. Were this forum being policed properly this thread would never have been needed. There should be no attempt at "mediation" - I mean, what the fuck are moderators for, anyway?

They're for taking abuse.

Come down hard and one side whines.

Be lenient and another side whines.

Guess what, when two sides act like fucking babies, then NOTHING a moderator can do to set it right. Because NEITHER side is ever going to admit that maybe, just maybe, THEY might be in the wrong.

Again....it is common courtesy that is lacking, not moderation. The mods knock themselves out trying to figure out what the right fucking thing to do is, and rarely do they get anything but slapped for it.

If you guys who act up (and this is only directed at the small percentage who DO act up and not at the 90% of regular posters who just post and are decent in here) would get over yourselves and stop trying to turn this into your individual forum, things would BE much better.

Gushers and bashers. Do you have ANY idea how STUPID that whole thing is? It's just a TV show people!! Why in the hell do folks get so worked up over who likes or dislikes it?

Some of you have the thinnest skins and least tolerance that I have ever seen. And the worst part, is that those very ones who whine the most, are the ones who do the same behaviors that contribute to the atmosphere that they hate.

Go figure.

To that 10% - probably comprised of half of those who like and half of those who don't like the show....as a regular non-mod poster, I wish you'd fucking leave. You spoil it for the rest.

For the 90% who never get into this crap, believe me, the mods know who you are, appreciate you and are here to TRY to make this place pleasant for you.

But as long as there are those who a) think the forum belongs to them and should be run as they see fit and b) think that they are immune from behaving, it will never happen.

And that is a shame.

The mods opened this up to try to solicit feedback in the hopes of improving things. Hell, mods don't like an unpleasant forum. They LIKE when things run smoothly, because it's less work. Of course, as regular posters, they also like it so that they can post in peace.

But a few have to come in here and whine and moan and they're the same ones who always make the trouble and fail to see their own shortcomings.

Being a mod is like Sysiphis (I don't know the spelling) rolling that rock up the hill. Just when you think you might reach the top and be done...wham....the damn boulder rolls back down and you have to start all over again.

I enjoyed modding this forum. I did it for a long time. I left because wS? and I were a team and it just didn't seem the same to me without him in here (although I was very gratified that we had mods in here with us who were well-able to handle the forum, you all know that wasn't ALWAYS the case.) Plus - I have wanted TOS forum forever.

But I still like the show and still like this forum. But as a regular poster now, it frustrates me to see the same behaviors used against the mods which I had to deal with, and the same blindness on the part of those doing so.

Again, to the 90% of great posters, you guys rocked. To the other 10% - well, you made me a better moderator. I learned a lot in here. But if you guys would cut the current mods a break, AND treat your fellow posters with courtesy even if you disagree with them, this place would be much better.

But I'm not holding my breath waiting.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

When in Rome do as the Romans do, and that is exactly what I will be doing.

 

[NX-01 Plumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by T'Bonz:

Guess what, when two sides act like fucking babies, then NOTHING a moderator can do to set it right. Because NEITHER side is ever going to admit that maybe, just maybe, THEY might be in the wrong.

Again....it is common courtesy that is lacking, not moderation. The mods knock themselves out trying to figure out what the right fucking thing to do is, and rarely do they get anything but slapped for it.

If you guys who act up (and this is only directed at the small percentage who DO act up and not at the 90% of regular posters who just post and are decent in here) would get over yourselves and stop trying to turn this into your individual forum, things would BE much better.

Gushers and bashers. Do you have ANY idea how STUPID that whole thing is? It's just a TV show people!! Why in the hell do folks get so worked up over who likes or dislikes it?

Some of you have the thinnest skins and least tolerance that I have ever seen. And the worst part, is that those very ones who whine the most, are the ones who do the same behaviors that contribute to the atmosphere that they hate.

Go figure.

To that 10% - probably comprised of half of those who like and half of those who don't like the show....as a regular non-mod poster, I wish you'd fucking leave. You spoil it for the rest.

[snip!]

[Stuff about how hard a mod's life can be when faced with assholes]

[More ranting]

But I'm not holding my breath waiting.

T'Bonz, I don't know what you've been inhaling/drinking, but it does seem to have produced a level of clarity that's been missing. Why would it be so difficult to come down as hard as you did on the 10% (a high estimate in my opinion) of the posters that stink up the forum? Why can't the mods slap those bitches around, like you so clearly wish you could, either in a thread or by PM, e-mail or IM? Yeah, the life of a mod is hell, but it is also in their power (and, perhaps, their responsibility?) to make this board a place where people want to hang out and post and be seduced by the new 2004 Honda Civic Hybrid. Right now, it's not so attractive and most of the posters in this thread regret this and wish it were different. I am not playing the blame game and I do not believe that the mods bear the greatest responsibility for the dismal state of the board. It's a shared responsibility between the posters and the mods, but only the mods can actually do something about it (which I guess this thread is attempting to do). If anything, we should be heartened by the level of response it has evoked, it shows people care about this virtual community, but it is not a solution to the problem, merely a better way to assess it.

Again, appealing to people's sense of civility is great, but as your post so clearly demonstrates civility (even in your case) can be strained ("fucking babies", "I wish you'd fucking leave") to the breaking point.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by T'Bonz:

Posted by Raz:
You have hit the nail on the head. Were this forum being policed properly this thread would never have been needed. There should be no attempt at "mediation" - I mean, what the fuck are moderators for, anyway?

They're for taking abuse.

Come down hard and one side whines.

Be lenient and another side whines.

Firstly, with that sort of attitude it's no wonder. Did I miss something? You guys are moderators, you shouldn't have to sit there and take abuse, this isn't a god damned democracy nor is a place that especially holds to the tenants of free speech or anything.

The fact that you're saying you (as a poster) wish certain people would leave, yet, as a moderator, you can't/don't/won't actually make them leave, really demonstrates to me just who has the power around here. Why don't you try pleading with them as well?

Is a bit of whining really such a bad thing if it cleans this place up? Really?

What i'm saying is there seems to be this disconnect between behaviour the mods find reprehensible (yes, it's a personal call) and punishment. It seems apparent to me that the mods are more than capable of seeing asshat behaviour and subtle trolling, but time and time again I hear the same points raised about "whining". I can't help but wonder why, to be blunt about it, you or any other mod even gives a fuck if somebody whines after getting warned/banned. Really, i've seen the most ridiculous complaints in MA actually generate threads no matter how inane or stupid they are. The whole Moderator Actions forum/process is a fucking courtesy far above and beyond what any other forum i've been on extends to it's posters. Most places i've been you get disciplined for posting crap, whether you really did or not, and you just have to suck it up.

*shrugs*

There's two sides to every coin obviously and i've been on the recieving end of some very bad calls on some other forums and been left without a leg to stand on. But at the same time I think that while MA is a good idea, it's created a general atmosphere of accountability among the mods that, while good in cases of extreme bias and personal agenda's, is IMO counterproductive where a forum goer is 'skating on thin ice' or just an inconsiderate opinionated bastard.

It's the "borderline" cases that cause all the trouble around here. Clear cut trolls have never been the issue because they get nailed. It's the ones who come close but don't quite pass "the line", yet stir up so much trouble and ill feeling, that is a lot of the reason we're all here.

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
It's the "borderline" cases that cause all the trouble around here. Clear cut trolls have never been the issue because they get nailed. It's the ones who come close but don't quite pass "the line", yet stir up so much trouble and ill feeling, that is a lot of the reason we're all here.

You have hit it exactly. Since they're borderline, it's very difficult to handle them and/or know precisely what to do. As you said, the real troublemakers are easy to deal with, when it's very blatant. But the low-level provokers are the very worst.

NX-1 Plumber....sheer frustration colored my post. And I do think that 10% is a pretty good ballpark figure.

The good thing is that means 90% are just fine. But it's the 10% that makes one rip out one's hair, figuratively.

And yes, I do wish that troublemakers would leave. Then again, I wish for six winning lottery numbers for tomorrow too. My odds of getting either are so close to zero as makes no difference.