ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Htown]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^If you're defining "gusher" as "one who really likes the show consistently", then I guess I'm one. And I can make the distinction. It's fairly easy to tell. Even those who don't like the show, who have an open mind, will eventually find at least one episode that they like. (Not saying they have to scream A+++, but only the most closed-minded bashers will claim that ENT has NEVER done anything good.)

I consider myself more a gusher than a basher. Yet, I can still recognize when ENT does something crappy. ::cough::Extinction::cough:: There is a difference between feeling generally disappointed at the show's quality and refusing to admit that the show ever COULD be good, and therefore nitpicking everything to death for an excuse to rate every episode an F.

There's a point where you go further than not liking a show, to REFUSING to like a show; in the same way, there's a point where you go further than liking a show, to MAKING yourself like a show. I think it's fairly easy to tell the difference most of the time, but as a "gusher" I know that I am more likely to believe bashers are going too far than I am to believe gushers are going too far, simply because of the fact that I like the show. I think that any honest "bashers" will probably agree that it's easier for them to believe that gushers go too far in the other direction.

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

It comes down to courtesy and common sense.

The forum is meant for discussion of the show. It isn't restricted to positive affirmation of the show. If someone dislikes an episode, or is not happy with the way the show is going, they should be able to say so without being excoriated.

If not, it just becomes the cheerleading forum, and to be honest, while that can be nice for fans, it becomes dull after a while.

If one likes a show, a good discussion with someone who doesn't like that show is invigorating and fun.

If one can't take criticism of the show, the smartest thing would be to skip over threads with criticisms and stick to the positive threads. There are enough of both to satisfy everyone.

For example, in VOY, I can't stand the "Seven of Nine" character. Instead of going in a thread where folks are enthusing over the character and questioning their IQ (however tempting), I simply hop over the thread and find something more to my liking.

That way, those who like her can enjoy the thread and I don't wreck their fun. It is common courtesy.

If someone can't stand that fact that someone doesn't like a/the show, it is very easy to ignore their posts, instead of getting angry and reacting.

It doesn't bother me that folks can and do have differing opinions. I can't stand ANIS, but I accept that others thought it was cute and funny.

Regular posters here aren't obliged to read every thread, they have the luxury of picking and choosing. So instead of being angry because someone has a differing viewpoint and you can't stand to read it, why not just skip past it and contribute to threads that you DO like? (whether you like ENT or have issues with it.)

Easy solution and everyone wins!

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

After 9 pages of discussion this thread boils down to the fact the mods like the way the forum is, the people that dislike the show like the way the forum is, and the people that like the show dislike the way the forum is. So the fact is that the people that like Enterprise are just not gonna be able to enjoy the forum and will have to endure the negative vibes. So in other words nothing has changed. We are at exactly the same place or worse because it is affirmed what was always thought. So let the heated exchanges continue until Enterprise's run is over.

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

But I'm not getting why those who like the show feel threatened by those who don't, or have their enjoyment ruined.

I adore TOS. (which is why I'm not modding ENT anymore, I wanted the TOS forum forever.) It doesn't bother me if someone doesn't like the show and rags about it. It's fun to debate them and prove them wrong.

Why are those who don't like a show so threatening? Where is the debate and discussion if there is no opposition?

 

[Guest]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by T'Bonz:


Why are those who don't like a show so threatening? Where is the debate and discussion if there is no opposition?

Okay, I can only speak for myself, so here goes. I like the show quite a bit. I've never considered myself a gusher because I'm not beyond pointing out when I think they've screwed something up. However, if being a gusher means you like more of the show than you dislike, then so be it. Personally, I don't see the logic in putting so much time and energy into a show you don't like and never will like, but, it's their time to waste so more power to them. I also have no problem debating someone who doesn't agree with an opinion I post as long as they are willing to debate it in a mature, constructive manner. What I do have a problem with are those few who come out swinging, ready to flame anyone who dares to take issue with their opinion and, when someone tries to call them on it, they start in on "debate the post and not the posters". These people are few and far between, but it does tear down what would otherwise be an enjoyable discussion. I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not what you say, but how you say it, and I know there are people on both sides that are guilty of it. I guess I just notice it more from the bashers because I've been on the receiving end of more of their tirades. However, as I've been here longer I've come to realize that all the reasoning in the world is not going to change how they post around here so I've learned to just ignore them and go on to posts that can be discussed the way they should be. Like Stewey said earlier, if more people on both sides did that there would likely be no need for forums like this.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by T'Bonz:

For example, in VOY, I can't stand the "Seven of Nine" character. Instead of going in a thread where folks are enthusing over the character and questioning their IQ (however tempting), I simply hop over the thread and find something more to my liking.

That way, those who like her can enjoy the thread and I don't wreck their fun. It is common courtesy.

So?
That's just you. Some do barge into positive threads and shit all over the place, and then the "Go somewhere else" and "I've got a right to post here" arguements start.
Common courtesy is not exercised by all posters...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by T'Bonz:
But I'm not getting why those who like the show feel threatened by those who don't, or have their enjoyment ruined.

I don't find it threatening. I do, however, find a number of negative posters as tedious and as much of a nuisance as many find me.

 

[Lindley]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Due to my comment earlier, I should define what I mean by gusher.

You're a gusher if you've ever given an ENT ep multiple plus signs after an A. One is quite enough.

For that matter, you're probably a gusher if you've ever given even an A+. Because that implies that ENT could not possibly be better.

A means, damned good episode. A- means, good ep. A+ means, perfect ep.

At least to my way of thinking. You give an A+, you're saying that it would be impossible for ENT to be better.

Which I suppose is neither here nor there. Perhaps I should comment about what each letter means in the next grading thread.......

 

[NAHTMMM]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Aha! See, Lindley's very kindly pointed out what I suspect is a major source of misunderstanding here: the fact that different people have wildly different criteria and wildly different standards.

He's already partly explained his thinking.

My basic standard has been, if it entertains me more than it pains and bores me, it gets at least a C. Because that's the primary goal of TV fiction: entertain the audience. (And if there are too many plot holes that are too big, then I won't be entertained. So that's all right.) Then from there, the more I liked it and the higher I think its quality was, the higher a grade it receives (and vice versa).
I for one am very reluctant to give anything below a D or above a B+/A-. The episode really has to stand up to hindsight to earn an A. Others may have different thresholds for extreme grades.

JohnM has said that he has quite a different standard (one, I think, much more in line with the average so-called "gusher"). He has said that he gives each episode at least a B- (or so) just for being Star Trek. Some other posters are probably just having a blast watching their favorite show and don't care how many tricks the production team missed. And that's their business.

Other posters like Stewey have stricter standards. I don't know what he looks for specifically, and it's not our place to demand to know--it's his business--but some people really want to see high-quality TV when watching Star Trek. And so plot holes, shabby characterization, retread scripts, etc. are going to bother such viewers more than average, because they're attuned to such qualities through experience or whatever. And that's their business.

I just wish the "gushers" and "bashers" would realize this about each other and themselves. Sometimes I think a squabble starts because one poster or another thinks that his or her own criteria and standards go without saying.

 

[Partsking]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Galactus, if I've learned anything in my life it's that someone will always bitch about something no matter what. That's one constant in this life. You have to accept that no matter how fantastic you think something is there's always going to be someone that'll have a "negative vibe" or something to say against it. You can't change that or the people expressing that opinion. Like Bon said, you either have to disprove them or ignore them. Plain and simple.

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Well, it seems to me that the problem isn't negative posters.

It's common courtesy, or more accurately, the lack thereof.

And as a moderator (former for this forum, obviously), I found that too many people have no damned courtesy. I think that it is more of an internet thing, due to the anonymity of the medium. Some feel that since they're "invisible", they can say what they please, things that would get them a poke in the nose IRL.

If posters from BOTH sides were courteous and treated others with respect, even those who disagreed with them, this forum would be great. And the mods wouldn't be needed.

Then again, that a) wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing and b) won't ever happen, given the nature of some to either want to deliberately want to make trouble (trolls) or those who just don't give a flying fuck about anyone's opinion but their own, and refuse to engage common courtesy and manners.

THAT is the problem with the forum (and indeed, Trekbbs or any messageboard at large, once it grows to a certain side), NOT "those who don't like the show" (or "gushers").

It's lack of courtesy for your fellow poster.

And that's your sermon, one day early, courtesy of the Bonz.

 

[commodore64]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lindley:
Due to my comment earlier, I should define what I mean by gusher.

You're a gusher if you've ever given an ENT ep multiple plus signs after an A. One is quite enough.

Hey now. I've given an episode A+++++++ (following a Christmas Story). But, I don't think someone who gives an A+ (or whatever) grade is a gusher. A gusher seems to be a person who likes *everything* Enterprise does. Not just an episode. Not just a character.

Gusher scenario:
If Berman and Braga said, "We have a new character on Enterprise. His name is Shit." Gushers would go, "Wow! That's clever. I've never heard of such a clever name. Ha! B&B are so funny."

Basher scenario:
If Berman and Braga said, "We've decided to let the fans dictate the show. And, we've decided that everything we've done up to now is crap." A Basher would say, "Now they're going to the fans! Oh please! What do they want to do -- make us happy?! "

I've personally found most people on the board to be somewhere inbetween. People who are very critical of the show provide mostly useful feedback. People who love the show get others excited about it. In that scenario -- all is right with the world. I'm actually pleased about that part of it. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lindley:
A means, damned good episode. A- means, good ep. A+ means, perfect ep.

That you interpret someone else's grade this way doesn't make it so. Is an "A+" on a school essay indicative that the instructor considered it a "perfect essay"? Of course not. There would not even be an agreed-upon set of criteria by which to declare such a thing "perfect".

All an "A+" necessarily means is that the grader really, really, really liked an episode and that in itself doesn't entitle anyone to call them a "gusher".

My grades for "Enterprise" have generally ranged between C's and A-s, with one D that I can think of.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Partsking:
Galactus, if I've learned anything in my life it's that someone will always bitch about something no matter what. That's one constant in this life. You have to accept that no matter how fantastic you think something is there's always going to be someone that'll have a "negative vibe" or something to say against it. You can't change that or the people expressing that opinion. Like Bon said, you either have to disprove them or ignore them. Plain and simple.

There is no proving or disproving an opinion, something most of the people on this board refuse to accept. So I chose simply to continue to engage in the continuing flame wars with people that continue to watch Enterprise and hate it. The thinking of the forum and probably the whole board is flawed and there is no fixing it. It is not my board and I don't run it so I play by your rules. So if a negative forum is what TPTB want then that is what I will give them.

 

[Lindley]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Lindley:
A means, damned good episode. A- means, good ep. A+ means, perfect ep.

That you interpret someone else's grade this way doesn't make it so. Is an "A+" on a school essay indicative that the instructor considered it a "perfect essay"? Of course not. There would not even be an agreed-upon set of criteria by which to declare such a thing "perfect".

All an "A+" necessarily means is that the grader really, really, really liked an episode and that in itself doesn't entitle anyone to call them a "gusher".

My grades for "Enterprise" have generally ranged between C's and A-s, with one D that I can think of.

That's the problem. Not only can people not agree on grading criteria, they can't even agree on how to express their opinion consistently.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by T'Bonz:
But I'm not getting why those who like the show feel threatened by those who don't, or have their enjoyment ruined.

I adore TOS. (which is why I'm not modding ENT anymore, I wanted the TOS forum forever.) It doesn't bother me if someone doesn't like the show and rags about it. It's fun to debate them and prove them wrong.

Why are those who don't like a show so threatening? Where is the debate and discussion if there is no opposition?

It is not a matter of threatened, it is a matter of common sense. I have given example, after example, after example of why it totally goes against common sense to have people allowed to post when they hate the show. Any reasonable person would agree, but so many here disagree. It is not surprising since most people around here or anti-anything that the average reasonable person does, like argue about a damn TV show and people that watch that damn TV when they don't like it. We all have problems.

 

[Unicron]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^ But it does seem reasonable to allow people who wish to criticize ENT to do so here, because otherwise it defeats the purpose of this board. Logically, someone could register as a member who hates Trek. It wouldn't seem to make much sense to do so, but as long as they kept their opinions within reason and showed respect for others, there would probably be no problem with it. Under the system you suggest, no one would ever be allowed to criticize any given show.

I agree with T'Bonz, and I think she is pointing out a distinction between people who hate the show and people who criticize the show, which are not automatically the same. I do not always agree with Stewey, I feel that ENT has made significant improvements of late, but I do understand the reasoning behind most of his opinions and therefore I have no problem respecting them.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Unicron:
^ But it does seem reasonable to allow people who wish to criticize ENT to do so here, because otherwise it defeats the purpose of this board. Logically, someone could register as a member who hates Trek. It wouldn't seem to make much sense to do so, but as long as they kept their opinions within reason and showed respect for others, there would probably be no problem with it. Under the system you suggest, no one would ever be allowed to criticize any given show.

I agree with T'Bonz, and I think she is pointing out a distinction between people who hate the show and people who criticize the show, which are not automatically the same. I do not always agree with Stewey, I feel that ENT has made significant improvements of late, but I do understand the reasoning behind most of his opinions and therefore I have no problem respecting them.

Ok tell me what the point of someone that hates Enterprise posting in this forum if you do not see the point of someone hating Star Trek posting on this board.

 

[Lord Garth]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:

Posted by Unicron:
^ But it does seem reasonable to allow people who wish to criticize ENT to do so here, because otherwise it defeats the purpose of this board. Logically, someone could register as a member who hates Trek. It wouldn't seem to make much sense to do so, but as long as they kept their opinions within reason and showed respect for others, there would probably be no problem with it. Under the system you suggest, no one would ever be allowed to criticize any given show.

I agree with T'Bonz, and I think she is pointing out a distinction between people who hate the show and people who criticize the show, which are not automatically the same. I do not always agree with Stewey, I feel that ENT has made significant improvements of late, but I do understand the reasoning behind most of his opinions and therefore I have no problem respecting them.

Ok tell me what the point of someone that hates Enterprise posting in this forum if you do not see the point of someone hating Star Trek posting on this board.

I'll chime in and hazard a guess. People start posting on TrekBBS because they have an interested in Star Trek. ENT happens to be the latest Star Trek series. The latest product of something people are interested in draws the most attention and people will post what they think about it.

It's not really a matter of like or dislike, more a matter of interest, and people like to discuss that which they have an interest in, whether that interest is positive or negative.

Someone who has no interested, neither positive nor negative, won't post here.

 

[Unicron]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

To be honest, I think the majority of people who may truly hate ENT don't post here, so I don't see the cause for alarm. The point is that a person who hates ENT should have the right to post here provided that they do so constructively, just as a person who dislikes Stargate or Star Wars has the right to express that opinion in a thread on that topic. You seem to be worried that people who hate ENT are making the forum negative by virtue of their dislike, yet asking that people should be allowed to post in ENT only if they consider ENT good. How does that encourage people to respect the opinions of others?