ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Tzigone]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

People are in the forum because they want to dicuss the show even if they don't like it.

They may watch even if they don't like it. Whu? Because it's Trek and they like Trek and want to know what's going on the Trek universe. A future series may reference these events and they'd like to know what was being discussed.

Or maybe because they keep hoping that it'll be as good as Trek should be.

They have every right to watch the show and discuss it here - as long as they aren't bashing. Criticism is not bashing.

Do some people bash? Yes. But not all critics do.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Tzigone:
They may watch even if they don't like it. Whu? Because it's Trek and they like Trek and want to know what's going on the Trek universe.

This just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^^^
Maybe this will. You are in a thread, several times now, being somewhat critical of these people's choice to post in this manner. You don't often miss a chance to make the same comment on it, despite the fact that the board policy has never changed on it, and that the reasons for it have been laid out, here, and many many times in various threads discussing the matter.

So, you know what the answer is, and whether you agree with the explanation for it - I'd warrant you have a pretty good idea of the standard responses too.

Why do you continue to comment in threads like this?

I'm not saying you don't have a reason to do it, but I am suggesting, that on some level, the reason you constantly choose to do this may not be dissimilar from the reason that people keep on complaining about Enterprise, even though, by now, I doubt they think it will get better. Look to thineself Dennis .

I understand the impetus to criticize a show when one feels an excellent opportunity and loved setting has been ruined - and to do so in a place where the producers are likely to read it. People who love Star Trek feel a sense of ownership over it, whether or not they produce or write it. It commands their attention.

Take heart though. Now that we are in Season 3, as with Voyager, I do think we'll begin to get some attrition among the malcontents who were hanging on to this season to see if it would get better enough. I know I'm slipping now - I've missed probably 3 or 4 in a row now (I've lost count) and it does seem that a few other of the usual suspects have jumped off the train too - at least, off this BBS.

But while I may empathize with the urge to diss on Enterprise when it is crappy (which, IMO is nearly all the times that I have seen it), I don't particularly enjoy coming to a moderated community where I feel that I must constantly justify my presence to a significant or vocal portion of it. It is about community, on some level, and while I may not need to feel the love, I don't like the constant "F&*$% you" from certain circles. There is very little logic in coming to a community where you aren't wanted - and on this basis alone - I can't really figure out why I bother anymore.

So, good work! Keep it up! I do think you'll get what you want, one way or another.

 

[Stewey]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Stewey:
Not true, if someone makes a valid point about the show, what does it matter whether they like the show on a level or not. The point they make is at the very heart of the matter, not their presence in the forum or their bias towards or against the show.

Actually, when someone dislikes the show that intensely the question of why they're in the forum is usually more intriguing than the points they make.

Their presence may well be intriguing, but it is irrelevant, as is me speculating that you are here to promote the "Subspace BBS" and have gotten away with the promotion of it (direct links to Samuel T Cogley reviews are one example) here for months, but of course discussing that is against the rules.

 

[Pindar]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:

Thanks for the help and the insult. Ok so please direct me to where the board rules are listed.

It's certainly not intended as insult, but there is a link to the board rules on every page, on the right hand side right under the faq.

Now based on that definition how is it possible to tell when someone just has a negative opinion vs trying to bait and anger another poster.

That's for the mods to decide.

Seems to me that in an Enterprise forum making threads berating the show is automatic baiting, but that is just me.

Some of these threads are baiting, often a drive by thread can generate good discussion though.

You are a fleet captain so you must have posted enough by now to know how this place works.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Tzigone:
They may watch even if they don't like it. Whu? Because it's Trek and they like Trek and want to know what's going on the Trek universe.

This just doesn't make any sense to me.

Doesn't make sense to me either. I'm a big Superman fan and check out anything about Superman but if it sucks I'll stop watching. I quit Lois and Clark when the stench became unbearable. I'm not going to torture myself watching a Superman show just because I'm a Superman fan. Why should I support crap? All it gives me is more of the same ol' crap. That encourages Paramount or Warners or whoever to keep putting out crap.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Ah, we're back to discussing the motivations of posters, again.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Worf999:
I'm a big Superman fan and check out anything about Superman but if it sucks I'll stop watching. I quit Lois and Clark when the stench became unbearable. I'm not going to torture myself watching a Superman show just because I'm a Superman fan.

That's a perfect example for me, too -- I loved "Lois And Clark" in the first year; when they made all the "creative changes" in the second year I lost interest and dropped it very quickly. Haven't thought much about it since -- and I've been a Superman fan since about 1959.

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

The point is, guys, a lot of people are pretty invested in Trek. The franchise has been around for almost forty years! Many people in this forum have watched more than one Trek show, if not all four.

Many of the critics have said they are waiting for the show to get better, or that they see some potential that show is not living up to. Some are just upset because they think the show doesn't live up to the name. And there are many, many other reasons--each person has their own motivations for coming here.

What I don't get, much more than the idea of people watching a show they hate, is others constantly taking them to task for it. I'm going to turn it around for a minute: why do you guys care so much about what someone else does in his/her free time? Why do you feel the need to know a critic's reason for watching the show?

In a thread devoted to the topic, it is relevant, but otherwise it's completely beside the point. If you disagree with someone's argument, you have a few options: ignore their argument, or debate them and try to prove them wrong (or at least assert your own opinion).

I think one of the major problems in this forum is that people jump to conclusions about each other in a very ignorant way. If someone adores the show and speaks about it in an eloquent manner, they're accused of being a "Paramount plant." If they hate the show, they're accused of being someone who has no life if they want to watch & discuss a show they dislike.

Do you guys see how silly that is? Can't we take people's opinions at face value? If someone adores the show and grades it with an A+++, well, they might just really love the show. Heck, that's pretty much how I felt about the entire season of Angel last year, and I didn't get called a "WB shill" (and if I had, I wouldn't have taken too kindly to it). People have a right to adore this show. What harm is it to anyone else?

Likewise, people have a right to hate it. There are a couple people around here who loath Buffy, my other favorite show. Do I read their posts and think they're wrong about it? Sure I do; I love the show. Do I think or say they're stupid/ignorant/blind, etc.? No. There's no reason to. A show is not going to appeal to everyone. But they have a right to dislike it and yes, discuss that dislike here.

I know many of the fans of the show have had great discussions with people who don't like the show. In trying to chase away critics, you'd be losing a part of what makes this forum so interesting. I like the show, but there's no way in hell I want to see a forum of people just discussing what they liked about the episodes. That would get boring pretty quickly. I came here for discussion, of both good aspects of the show, and the bad.

The point of this long, rambling post is to say that I think the problems of this forum would be solved to a great extent if we stopped trying to judge other people, or thrust them into a "gusher"/"basher" category. It ain't that simple, folks.

You all are mostly adults, some teenagers. You should know by now that just because someone does something differently than you would (say, watches a show they hate, or loves a show you think is "rubbish") doesn't mean they should be dismissed.

If you feel that you cannot reply to someone without being snide, don't reply. This is really the only way the forum is going to get better. The mods can warn to high heaven (and we have in the past), but really it comes down to you guys treating each other respectfully.

One thing I don't like about the net is that people feel they can be ruder and more impolite than they would be in real life. Why? Behind each screenname is a person; just because you're not face to face doesn't mean that isn't important.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Top41, if you don't think still watching a show after 1 year, let alone 2 plus years, of absolutely hating everything it stands for is strange, then that's, well, ... <<Austin Powers moment>> ... strange.

Of course posters have the right to wax negative 100% of the time. And I also have the right to ignore them once it becomes obvious that they don't enjoy Enterprise on any level whatsoever.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Borgminister:
Of course posters have the right to wax negative 100% of the time. And I also have the right to ignore them once it becomes obvious that they don't enjoy Enterprise on any level whatsoever.

This is absolutlely true. However ... there is a distinction to be made between not enjoying the show at this time, on any level, and asserting that people will "never, ever" enjoy the show on any level. It's the latter assertion that I find objectionable, and it is not at all uncommon on this board or even in this thread. These people are being considered unusual for making a decision to remain open-minded by continuing to allow that the show can improve, and the only way they can exercise that open-mindedness is to watch. That, to me, seems considerably more rational than the insistence that they have no capacity for change.

Besides, what does it matter whether they will never like it? As long as they watch it, those who do enjoy the show stand a better chance of continuing to do so, as these 'irrational' folks are contributing to the ratings that keep it on the air. It's a shame, though, that there should be an attitude that the show's critics should see it, but not be heard ...

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Ptrope:

Posted by Borgminister:
Of course posters have the right to wax negative 100% of the time. And I also have the right to ignore them once it becomes obvious that they don't enjoy Enterprise on any level whatsoever.

This is absolutlely true. However ... there is a distinction to be made between not enjoying the show at this time, on any level, and asserting that people will "never, ever" enjoy the show on any level. It's the latter assertion that I find objectionable, and it is not at all uncommon on this board or even in this thread. These people are being considered unusual for making a decision to remain open-minded by continuing to allow that the show can improve, and the only way they can exercise that open-mindedness is to watch. That, to me, seems considerably more rational than the insistence that they have no capacity for change.

Besides, what does it matter whether they will never like it? As long as they watch it, those who do enjoy the show stand a better chance of continuing to do so, as these 'irrational' folks are contributing to the ratings that keep it on the air. It's a shame, though, that there should be an attitude that the show's critics should see it, but not be heard ...

Ptrope, the chances of some posters here ever enjoying the show is virtually nill and you know it. In my opinion, this taints any credibility they have as critics, since they have never, ever liked a show. Critics have to be one thing to be credible: Objective.

For example, Jammer at his site posts reviews, like some shows, hating others. That is a critic. He stopped reviewing Andromeda once it became -- in his opinion -- so bad as to be a waste of time. Although I may disagree with some of his reviews, I respect those reviews because I feel Jammer is balanced and fair, and has the ability to be entertained by Enterprise.

Others don't, and I skip right past them, not seeing any sense in exposing myself to a broken record, or to a sure dose of negativity, about a show I realize isn't perfect, but has IMO provided good entertainment and has gotten better.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Borgminister:
Ptrope, the chances of some posters here ever enjoying the show is virtually nill and you know it. In my opinion, this taints any credibility they have as critics, since they have never, ever liked a show. Critics have to be one thing to be credible: Objective.

As we would hope you might be, but this post pretty clearly states that you are not, at least not in this case. You've dismissed people because you've judged them irredeemable; that's not in the least bit objective, so why should we extend credibility to you, either?

I'm not trying to make a personal statement about you, Borgminister, only to shine a light on the contradiction in your position. Consider this: just because these folks have never liked a single episode of ENT does not mean they are not objective, and therefore lack credibility. It may simply be that their objective standards have been unmet by each and every episode of the show; that doesn't disqualify them from finding any future episodes to meet their standards. I don't think you can prove that any of them don't like anything on TV; I'd be surprised and disappointed if you even tried to say so in order to prove your point. So, given that there's something on TV that they do enjoy, I think that alone supports that they could enjoy an ENT episode, or even an entire season. Consider that most of them even admit up front to having enjoyed previous Star Trek series, so you can't even say that, as Star Trek, there is no chance of them ever enjoying ENT; if an episode approaches the standards by which they enjoyed the previous series, then there's a good chance that they will enjoy it, as well. Just because they haven't seen one yet doesn't discredit them in the least. Please don't tell me what I know, or what other people know; I only know what I can prove, and you haven't proven anything by your assumptions.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Ptrope:

Posted by Borgminister:
Ptrope, the chances of some posters here ever enjoying the show is virtually nill and you know it. In my opinion, this taints any credibility they have as critics, since they have never, ever liked a show. Critics have to be one thing to be credible: Objective.

As we would hope you might be, but this post pretty clearly states that you are not, at least not in this case. You've dismissed people because you've judged them irredeemable; that's not in the least bit objective, so why should we extend credibility to you, either?

I'm not trying to make a personal statement about you, Borgminister, only to shine a light on the contradiction in your position. Consider this: just because these folks have never liked a single episode of ENT does not mean they are not objective, and therefore lack credibility. It may simply be that their objective standards have been unmet by each and every episode of the show; that doesn't disqualify them from finding any future episodes to meet their standards. I don't think you can prove that any of them don't like anything on TV; I'd be surprised and disappointed if you even tried to say so in order to prove your point. So, given that there's something on TV that they do enjoy, I think that alone supports that they could enjoy an ENT episode, or even an entire season. Consider that most of them even admit up front to having enjoyed previous Star Trek series, so you can't even say that, as Star Trek, there is no chance of them ever enjoying ENT; if an episode approaches the standards by which they enjoyed the previous series, then there's a good chance that they will enjoy it, as well. Just because they haven't seen one yet doesn't discredit them in the least. Please don't tell me what I know, or what other people know; I only know what I can prove, and you haven't proven anything by your assumptions.

I'm not trying to prove anything, merely stating that it is bizarre, or surely a waste of any reasonable person's mind, to continuously, week in and week out, watch a show for two plus years that you invariably hate. Sure, you might, oh say in year seven, have an epiphany and finally come to grade an episode C-----, but has the journey been worth it?

Ever hear of reruns? There are several people who have said well, that's it, I'm out of here and won't watch again until I get wind that it has become good. Then give it a try again and catch up with older episodes. That is a reasonable approach.

It seems to me to be plain old common sense. Survivor has great ratings, you enjoy the show, and I don't. Guess what? I don't watch what I don't enjoy.

As for the forty year investment in the franchise argument, well, I have that too. I've seen every episode of every incarnation, and **GASP** enjoyed them all on some level. But again, it goes against common sense to continue watching at some point if you can't stand a show. If you think otherwise, of course you are also entitled to your opinion.

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Borgminister:
Top41, if you don't think still watching a show after 1 year, let alone 2 plus years, of absolutely hating everything it stands for is strange, then that's, well, ... <<Austin Powers moment>> ... strange.

Maybe it is, but why go around judging people for it, or feeling the need to bring it up all the time (not just you--all the folks who mention it)? I'm not arguing it's not strange, but I find it a whole lot stranger to obsess about someone else's viewing habits.

I'm not trying to prove anything, merely stating that it is bizarre, or surely a waste of any reasonable person's mind, to continuously, week in and week out, watch a show for two plus years that you invariably hate. Sure, you might, oh say in year seven, have an epiphany and finally come to grade an episode C-----, but has the journey been worth it?

Isn't that their call to make, though? People are in charge of how they spend their own free time. That means if they want to watch and talk about a show they hate, then that is their prerogative. And I am tired of people taking them to task for it, just as I'm tired of people harping on "A+++" grades. This forum could really use a "live and let live" attitude. I guarantee things would be better around here.

Of course posters have the right to wax negative 100% of the time. And I also have the right to ignore them once it becomes obvious that they don't enjoy Enterprise on any level whatsoever.

Of course you do, and I think this would also help things in the forum. So many of us have recognizable avatars that it really is simple to scroll past someone whose posts you don't wish to read.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Top41:

Posted by Borgminister:
Top41, if you don't think still watching a show after 1 year, let alone 2 plus years, of absolutely hating everything it stands for is strange, then that's, well, ... <<Austin Powers moment>> ... strange.

Maybe it is, but why go around judging people for it, or feeling the need to bring it up all the time (not just you--all the folks who mention it)? I'm not arguing it's not strange, but I find it a whole lot stranger to obsess about someone else's viewing habits.

Glad you agree that devotedly tuning into a show you hate for years on end and then "critically" analyzing each and every episode might be a bit strange. I'm sure you wouldn't watch a show you hate, nor would any reasonable person, after a certain point.

And I'm not judging anyone, nor obsessing--you started this mediation thread, remember? I am participating, albeit briefly, and adding my two cents. Like I said, I skip over posts that are fringe, one-dimensional expressions of hatred, because I happen to like the show, warts and all.

I will continue to read posts that alternate praise with critisism, because they reflect a greater balance, or at least SOME balance. And no, I've never graded an episode A+++, but by the same token, I've never given out an F--- either. I think the truth often lies somewhere in betweeen, not at either end of the spectrum.

Anyway, that's it for my obsessive and judgemental involvement in this thread that you created for this express purpose, unless anything new is brought to the table.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Borgminister: merely stating that it is bizarre, or surely a waste of any reasonable person's mind, to continuously, week in and week out, watch a show for two plus years that you invariably hate.

1. Your issue is not that people watch something that they hate – it’s that they post about it here, and their posts do not serve whatever it is you enjoy about this BBS. If they simply watched it and hated it, but never posted, you’d be none the wiser.

2. Also, it’s quite possible that some or many of them don’t necessarily watch all or even most of the episodes. I only watch some of the ones that Reno rates favorably now – and there’s still plenty of things on others now to comment on without making unfair assumptions.

3. It may also be that people do enjoy occasional episodes, or aspects of them, but that they either don’t post on these (and they don’t need to, because fans already have posted), or these are lost in the wash of criticisms that accompany them. I’ve seen people repeatedly and incorrectly accuse certain reviewers of never liking anything Trek. I’ve praised certain aspects and even episodes of it myself on this board (albeit mild praise), and I’ve even disagreed with some of the less enthusiastic posters to do it, but I’ll bet that isn’t the role you would cast me in.

What I don’t get is this strange need to somehow rate, value, or qualify these posters – with the criticisms being somehow less “useful” here than praise. Do you really feel like you are doing God’s Work by coming to a thread to say “I enjoyed this.”? Is this intrinsically, undeniably, objectively better or more important than the less enthusiastic contributions?

In terms of the end result – what does it achieve, for you, or for the show? Isn’t it all a frivolous waste of time? Don’t you dare jabber at me like the SNL evil Kirk about how I use my time, when you are are here every day with the pointy ears on, saying and doing equally unproductive things. In the great nerdocracy, our differences are only skin deep. To the casual observer, we'd both have tape on our glasses and pocket protectors.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:
In terms of the end result – what does it achieve, for you, or for the show? Isn’t it all a frivolous waste of time? Don’t you dare jabber at me like the SNL evil Kirk about how I use my time, when you are are here every day with the pointy ears on, saying equally unproductive things.

Very true.

But you seem to have the capacity to find some redeeming value in the show, given your reference to Reno as barometer for whether you should watch or not.

The fringe extremes are what I try to avoid.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I think the issue with is that some people don't think there is anything wrong with a person watching a show they hate and then posting on this forum about it. That is what drives me crazy. That is the kind of behavior that have earned us "Trekkies" the reputation we have now. No matter if we think the show is bad or not we will still religiously watch it. I am sorry there is something wrong with that.

As most people know, I love Superman. Think he is the greatest sci fi creation ever. Been reading his comics, watching the movies, and everything else Superman related. I don't watch Smallville anymore cause I don't like it. I don't go into Smallville forums on Superman boards to talk about the show. I am sure I dislike Smallville as much as Stewey or anyone else dislikes Enterprise, but I am not gonna torture myself watching it everyway and complaining about it every freaking week for two years in a forum dedicated to the show.

Nobody is saying that everyone in the forum should love everything about the show. I don't loved everything about the show. I critize it as much as I praise it. But I like the show on some level. People keep saying they keep watching it in hopes that it gets better. So what happens after the series ends and those people are still in here posting. What would be the rational for that? I am sure that there are people it the other show forums that post there and hate the show but I don't think it is many.

I just don't see how that kind of critism is productive. There is a big difference between liking something and not liking it. It is like a bad marriage, if you start hating each other it is time to split up and go your separate ways.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by George_42:

Posted by Galactus:

Thanks for the help and the insult. Ok so please direct me to where the board rules are listed.

It's certainly not intended as insult, but there is a link to the board rules on every page, on the right hand side right under the faq.

Then I sincerely hope you accept my apology.