ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Stewey]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:If I went to a Buffy board and posted everyday and said how much I hate Buffy and how it failed to rise to high standards, and people questioned why I was watching the show and then posting on the board, I would have no problem with them questioning my motives. You are not separate from the opinions and ideas you put forth, in fact your ideas and opinions, along with your actions define every human being. So the poster is just as important the post that is made.

Buffy is a totally different entity than that of Enterprise. Buffy is just a one-show franchise whereas Enterprise is part of a sucessful television and movie franchise. Maybe you don't mind having your motives questioned but not everyone thinks the same way you do and you simply don't want to respect that if others choose not to justify themselves, I feel it is dis-respectful behavior from posters criticising someone for being there.

The people that dislike Enterprise do not separate the show from its creators so why should a different standard be applied to you and your posts. You make the post. You want to question the show and its creators and their talent level, why should I not be able then to question your posts and the poster. There is no difference. I know that the mods and board rules say you can't do this but it is still being done. I don't know about you, but I know plenty of other people every single week attack B&B along with the quality of Enterprise. I know this was brought up earlier in this thread yet it still goes on.

The people who make the show are in the public eye especially with a franchise of this nature. This forum is as much a discussion forum as it is a feedback forum, the polls posted are indicitive of that, and we all know full well that paramount people use this and other messageboards to assess how their product is being received. B&B get criticism because they are responsible for the quality of the show good or bad, and for every criticism of B&B I also see there is as much praise of them too from those who enjoy the show.

By all means take the arguments full on; I welcome that, but attacking the poster for having the opinion they have is what is wrong.

 

[Partsking]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Alright guys. Let's dial it back a little. I see some personal's starting to fly around and that ain't what this thread is about.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Stewey:

Posted by Galactus:If I went to a Buffy board and posted everyday and said how much I hate Buffy and how it failed to rise to high standards, and people questioned why I was watching the show and then posting on the board, I would have no problem with them questioning my motives. You are not separate from the opinions and ideas you put forth, in fact your ideas and opinions, along with your actions define every human being. So the poster is just as important the post that is made.

Buffy is a totally different entity than that of Enterprise. Buffy is just a one-show franchise whereas Enterprise is part of a sucessful television and movie franchise. Maybe you don't mind having your motives questioned but not everyone thinks the same way you do and you simply don't want to respect that if others choose not to justify themselves, I feel it is dis-respectful behavior from posters criticising someone for being there.

The people that dislike Enterprise do not separate the show from its creators so why should a different standard be applied to you and your posts. You make the post. You want to question the show and its creators and their talent level, why should I not be able then to question your posts and the poster. There is no difference. I know that the mods and board rules say you can't do this but it is still being done. I don't know about you, but I know plenty of other people every single week attack B&B along with the quality of Enterprise. I know this was brought up earlier in this thread yet it still goes on.

The people who make the show are in the public eye especially with a franchise of this nature. This forum is as much a discussion forum as it is a feedback forum, the polls posted are indicitive of that, and we all know full well that paramount people use this and other messageboards to assess how their product is being received. B&B get criticism because they are responsible for the quality of the show good or bad, and for every criticism of B&B I also see there is as much praise of them too from those who enjoy the show.

By all means take the arguments full on; I welcome that, but attacking the poster for having the opinion they have is what is wrong.

Cause it is part of the franchise means you hae to watch it? So if you are gonna watch it no matter what, why should anyone try to put in quality into it. You will watch no matter what. So if they did a claymation Star Trek show would you watch that too. What about a Freddy/Jason crossover? A Striparella cross over? I am betting the answer is yes.

So since the B's are in the public eye it is ok to trash them. What if they joined the board tommorrow, would it still be ok. What if either me, Ptrope, Reno or any of the other people that write got the chance to do a Star Trek show. Would it be ok to attack us the way you do the B's?

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Nephandus:

Posted by Galactus: The people that dislike Enterprise do not separate the show from its creators so why should a different standard be applied to you and your posts. You make the post. You want to question the show and its creators and their talent level, why should I not be able then to question your posts and the poster.

So then, you are fine with us not holding back, and saying what we really think about you personally Galactus ? Fair is fair right? It's ok to discuss you if you persist in discussing other posters? Do you think this will be good discussion for the forum, and for your self-esteem?

What I don't get, is that Stew has already been invited to read the thread where all these topics were covered, he says he did, and doesn't care, he's received a friendly already - in the friggin mediation thread, some people have attempted to discuss it rationally with him, and he still persists. At what point does this turn warnable?

Do you really believe it is the same thing. If you do then in my example you would think the person that defended themselves was a murderer just like the person that was trying to kill them. You think that the US and England were just as bad as the Nazis in WWII. You think that Superman is just as bad as Luthor. You think that Batman is as bad as the Joker. The reason I say this is because the point has been made by people that the heroes are just as bad as the villans. I am taking this to the extreme but I am trying to make a point. I know it is pointless but I am still trying.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:

Do you really believe it is the same thing. If you do then in my example you would think the person that defended themselves was a murderer just like the person that was trying to kill them. You think that the US and England were just as bad as the Nazis in WWII.

Godwin's Law, dude. D'oh!

 

[commodore64]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Partsking:
Alright guys. Let's dial it back a little. I see some personal's starting to fly around and that ain't what this thread is about.

Actually I have a suggestion. I have twice tried to notify the moderators and saw no action. Not even a note in my inbox that explained "It's okay. I don't think he/she meant this to be offensive." To me that means -- why bother notifying the mods? [Not about this, something completely different.]

The problem is -- once things get wound up, it's hard to get them unwound. Once someone calls me a jerk (or whatever), I'm more likely to get on and explain myself or defend myself. Then you have about two pages of people who's emotions are getting a little out of hand.

Your post was great -- nice and friendly "dial it back." You knew some things were getting a little out of hand, but mostly it was good logical discussion between people who agree/disagree. Your friendly reminder was just that -- "keep it friendly, guys."

Can we have more of that? Can I see more moderator posts in general, asking people to be friendly when things get out of hand? I've seen lots of threads turn ugly without any interaction from mods. In fact, I've seen fellow posters step up and do something (which is nice, but not seen as "neutral").

Thanks!

 

[Masked Cucumber]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Galactus:

Do you really believe it is the same thing. If you do then in my example you would think the person that defended themselves was a murderer just like the person that was trying to kill them. You think that the US and England were just as bad as the Nazis in WWII.

Godwin's Law, dude. D'oh!

Hehe, I think this thread has gone for too long now (isn't that Godwin's Law's main statement?). I am bowing out.

I remain,

The Masked Cucumber

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by commodore64:
Your post was great -- nice and friendly "dial it back." You knew some things were getting a little out of hand, but mostly it was good logical discussion between people who agree/disagree. Your friendly reminder was just that -- "keep it friendly, guys."

This friendly reminder came on the tail of another friendly reminder from a mod- to one of the parties, and yet another friendly reminder from me, to pay attention to that reminder.

To me, at that point, "keep it friendly, guys" means - "no, we do not intend to take action at this point, carry on please." I see deks in this thread here is also carrying on in the same fashion - demanding that people who criticize the show or aspects of it justify their presence.

How about it mods? I know you've all said this is against board rules and against the spirit of the BBS. Ample reasons have been laid out in this thread and elsewhere. It is probably the single most common troll, it nearly always results in a hissyfit, and yet, despite all that - I have never, not even once - seen anyone warned for it. Is this a matter of policy or is it accident?

If it isn't a problem to discuss the posters in this manner, then please save me and others the headache and stop pretending that it is against the rules.

 

[NAHTMMM]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

You know, I root for the Arizona Cardinals, even though they left St. Louis before I even remember being aware of football, because they used to be in St. Louis and one of my parents is from Arizona.

That doesn't mean I can't admit they stink, or that they need to improve in certain areas. And the fact that, as it happens, I do think they're rather lousy needn't mean that I will inevitably lose interest in them and will ignore news about them and even refuse to have any strong opinions whatsoever concerning them.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by NAHTMMM:
You know, I root for the Arizona Cardinals, even though they left St. Louis before I even remember being aware of football, because they used to be in St. Louis and one of my parents is from Arizona.

That doesn't mean I can't admit they stink, or that they need to improve in certain areas. And the fact that, as it happens, I do think they're rather lousy needn't mean that I will inevitably lose interest in them and will ignore news about them and even refuse to have any strong opinions whatsoever concerning them.

But what about the Nazis?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Hmm. The only remark of Deks I found at that link that fit into the context of this discussion was:

People... If Enterprise is so damn predictable as some of you claim ... then why watch it ?

That's not a demand that anyone justify their participation in this forum. It's a question about watching the show, one that some people clearly get tired of being asked (I've no idea whether Deks gets tired of asking it). In this particular instance, it's a request that people make clear the distinction they see between predictability in "Star Trek: Enterprise" and in TOS, TNG, and DS9Voyager.

 

[Ptrope]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
That's not a demand that anyone justify their participation in this forum. It's a question about watching the show, one that some people clearly get tired of being asked (I've no idea whether Deks gets tired of asking it). In this particular instance, it's a request that people make clear the distinction they see between predictability in "Star Trek: Enterprise" and in TOS, TNG, and DS9Voyager.

C'mon, Dennis, this sort of thing doesn't help the discussion at all. I'm certain you are more than aware of the point of this line of reasoning, but just to clarify it, this is about questioning people about their reasons for watching ENT or any show and coming to this or any board to do nothing more than complain about it. I'm sure you're also more than aware that this is stretching the facts, that it's clear that people who do that in its most literal sense are few and that the majority of those who criticize the show don't simply do so to hear themselves think or to cause friction on this or any other board.

Picking a single word or clipped phrase out of someone's post, especially when it's clear to even the most casual observer from the context of the literally dozens of surrounding posts what the real heart of the discussion is, is not in the least bit productive, nor is it clever.

BTW, I hope the "DS9Voyager" thing was a typo; I'm sure you know how well intentionally misnaming a show goes down around here, just as I'm sure you would never try to purposely twist a word or attempt to aggravate a situation without actually commiting an infraction .

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by NAHTMMM:
You know, I root for the Arizona Cardinals, even though they left St. Louis before I even remember being aware of football, because they used to be in St. Louis and one of my parents is from Arizona.

That doesn't mean I can't admit they stink, or that they need to improve in certain areas. And the fact that, as it happens, I do think they're rather lousy needn't mean that I will inevitably lose interest in them and will ignore news about them and even refuse to have any strong opinions whatsoever concerning them.

Ok the difference is that you like the Arizona Cardinals on some level even though you think that they are lousy now and making bad decisions. That is the difference that I am talking about. In the Enterprise forum you have people like Ptrope and Reno that dislike the level of Enterprise and think it could be a better show. But every blue moon they see an episode and they like it and give it credit. That is called critism. You have other people that say the show stucks, always give the show bad grades, state over and over again that they will never like it, yet they continue to watch it and post the same negative posts, week after week. That is the difference people are just not getting. Eliminating these people from the forum would improve the forum significantly yet that is not gonna happen. I have not seen this behavior I have mentioned tolerated anywhere else but here. It is even encouraged and respected by some.

It is like having the Republicans at the Democratic convention deciding who is gonna run against the Republican president. But no matter how many examples I give people are gonna continue to knock them to the side.

Oh I have no idea what trolling is. I have said this before. I think flaming means insulting and attacking someone. I am sorry I am not up on all the message board jargon.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Ptrope:
Picking a single word or clipped phrase out of someone's post, especially when it's clear to even the most casual observer from the context of the literally dozens of surrounding posts what the real heart of the discussion is, is not in the least bit productive, nor is it clever.

It was an accurate quote that was the closest of anything in that thread to justifying the complaint being made about Deks -- and it fell way short of that. I find it very productive; it's just not helpful to the cause of hushing folks like Deks up. That's okay; it's not meant to be.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Borgminister:
It is puzzling why anyone would, for 2 plus years, watch each and every episode of a show they will never, ever under any circumstances enjoy on any level, and then waste even more time extensively stating their reasons why. When at some point I realize that I will never like a show, I will stop watching and move on to something else. I'm not advocating anyone else do that, but it seems to me a reasonable thing to do.

I find this puzzling as well, and have said so on several occasions.

That's because the part i've helpfully bolded for you is wrong.

They enjoy it on some level; just not on a level you value in any way. For instance, they might just enjoy hating it. Meta-enjoyment?

Anyway, that's my monthly devil's advocate quota gone.

It's kinda sad to see the same "if they don't like it why do they watch it" question come up.. again.. and again.. I thought the whole point of a thread like this was to get away from discussing the motivations of posters.

 

[Stewey]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Galactus:In the Enterprise forum you have people like Ptrope and Reno that dislike the level of Enterprise and think it could be a better show. But every blue moon they see an episode and they like it and give it credit. That is called critism. You have other people that say the show stucks, always give the show bad grades, state over and over again that they will never like it, yet they continue to watch it and post the same negative posts, week after week. That is the difference people are just not getting. Eliminating these people from the forum would improve the forum significantly yet that is not gonna happen. I have not seen this behavior I have mentioned tolerated anywhere else but here. It is even encouraged and respected by some.

There is no rule stating that critics must every once in a while praise an episode just to keep people like you happy any more than there is a rule stating that every gusher must post a "negative" post every now and again to keep people like me happy. So what if people are consistent, if they are following the rules and not attacking anyone personally what the hell does it matter? I may grade the episodes as I choose and regardless of the grade I give, I always back up my grade with some justifications as to why I didn't like the episode. Going in with: "F, this episode was a bag of shite" every week could be seen as trolling, but not if you back up the grade with some logical thought our arguments backing up the grade.

From what you write above, I get the impression that you are not interested in an actual debate because you want people you don't like eliminated from the board to spare you of having your "fun" destroyed. There is a scroll button built into your browser and it's not terribly difficult to use it once in a while, and furthermore you notice the "negative" threads but still insist on entering them and posting in them knowing full well that you are just going to annoy the thread author and the participants who may agree with him/her.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Stewey:
There is no rule stating that critics must every once in a while praise an episode.

No, there's not. However, it's fair to take someone's strong, insistent, repeatedly stated bias against the show and frequent calls for its early cancellation into account when evaluating whether their "criticism" is likely to contain observations of sufficient merit -- when divorced from their bias -- to make reading them worthwhile. Just as it's fair to look askance at the motives of someone who hates something and yet continues to lavish attention on it and style themselves a "critic" -- somewhat analogous to the District Attorney's Office of Los Angeles and O.J. Simpson characterizing themselves each as "critics" of the practices of the other when in fact they must honestly be considered absolutely opposed entities if not "enemies".

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Stewey:

Posted by Galactus:In the Enterprise forum you have people like Ptrope and Reno that dislike the level of Enterprise and think it could be a better show. But every blue moon they see an episode and they like it and give it credit. That is called critism. You have other people that say the show stucks, always give the show bad grades, state over and over again that they will never like it, yet they continue to watch it and post the same negative posts, week after week. That is the difference people are just not getting. Eliminating these people from the forum would improve the forum significantly yet that is not gonna happen. I have not seen this behavior I have mentioned tolerated anywhere else but here. It is even encouraged and respected by some.

There is no rule stating that critics must every once in a while praise an episode just to keep people like you happy any more than there is a rule stating that every gusher must post a "negative" post every now and again to keep people like me happy. So what if people are consistent, if they are following the rules and not attacking anyone personally what the hell does it matter? I may grade the episodes as I choose and regardless of the grade I give, I always back up my grade with some justifications as to why I didn't like the episode. Going in with: "F, this episode was a bag of shite" every week could be seen as trolling, but not if you back up the grade with some logical thought our arguments backing up the grade.

From what you write above, I get the impression that you are not interested in an actual debate because you want people you don't like eliminated from the board to spare you of having your "fun" destroyed. There is a scroll button built into your browser and it's not terribly difficult to use it once in a while, and furthermore you notice the "negative" threads but still insist on entering them and posting in them knowing full well that you are just going to annoy the thread author and the participants who may agree with him/her.

Board rule, it is just common sense and like I keep saying over and over again it is the way the boards I have visted worked. Actually from what I gathered from some to the posters isn't that why the Slipstream board was shut down, because of the negative posters.

And let me get this straight you are telling me to not go into threads on a forum about a show I like, but you think it is ok for you to go into a forum about a show that you don't like. Seems like flawed thinking to me.

 

[Nephandus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Stewey:
There is no rule stating that critics must every once in a while praise an episode.

No, there's not. However, it's fair to take someone's strong, insistent, repeatedly stated bias against the show and frequent calls for its early cancellation into account when evaluating whether their "criticism" is likely to contain observations of sufficient merit -- when divorced from their bias -- to make reading them worthwhile. Just as it's fair to look askance at the motives of someone who hates something and yet continues to lavish attention on it and style themselves a "critic" -- somewhat analogous to the District Attorney's Office of Los Angeles and O.J. Simpson characterizing themselves each as "critics" of the practices of the other when in fact they must honestly be considered absolutely opposed entities if not "enemies".

This is a beside the point. The issue is not what one thinks, but rather what one chooses to post.

"Critic" is a word which encompasses a range of behaviors, from mild and isolated disappointment, to the "enemies" who some believe have lost all perspective, and hate it just for the sake of posting that they hate it.

Just as the word "fan" could include the occassionaly impressed and semi-interested viewer, along with sycophants who would exalt a video of a turd on a pie-plate if it began with the Enterprise credits.

Frankly, I don't care that much about the extremes of either group, and I do indeed judge the merits of their posts by the context of their other posts. I may think that some fans have impoverished taste - based on their overgenerous praise of every single episode, but that does not compel me to demand that they account for their taste other than through their discussion of the ep- to show that they are worthy and capable of participating in a discussion of it.

I expect the same courtesy in return, because this is a "moderated" board where this kind of commentary has been ruled out of bounds by nearly every moderator to take the role, at some point or another.

Funny thing is - it is the very fact that this is a moderated board, and that this is against the rules, that I find it more upsetting to see it run unchecked. I expect discourtesy on the Usenet and unmoderated BBS's, and if someone works so hard to piss me off, I can tell them to go fuck themselves and be done with it. That doesn't happen here.

 

[Stewey]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Dennis Bailey:

Posted by Stewey:
There is no rule stating that critics must every once in a while praise an episode.

No, there's not. However, it's fair to take someone's strong, insistent, repeatedly stated bias against the show and frequent calls for its early cancellation into account when evaluating whether their "criticism" is likely to contain observations of sufficient merit -- when divorced from their bias -- to make reading them worthwhile.

Of course, but at the end of the day you are here to discuss the show and not the posters, biased or not and that is the heart of the matter. Besides, you haven't budged an inch with your opinions either