ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Temis the Vorta]

Most people don't take a contrary opinion in order to be "cool." This is another unwarranted dismissal of a person's opinion, implying as it does that the person has no valid opinion of his own, but only says what he does in order to "fit in."

Good point. Unless your name is Al Bester, you can't read other posters' minds to determine their motivation for posting this thing or that, so its presumptuous of anyone to tell others why they are doing something. Just accept the fact that others' motivations are their own and really none of your business anyway. If someone were stating an opinion only to be "cool," that wouldn't be wrong per se. It might be pathetic, but that's not relevant either, so we should keep that thought to ourselves.

 

[Raz]

Posted by Temis the Vorta:

Cross-series comparisons

I think it's perfectly ok to say things like "ENT does plot arcs better than DS9 because all the episodes are about the arc, and on DS9, it was only like 1/2 to 1/3" or "Stargate really has the same basic premise as ENT, but the military decision-making aspect is more plausibly handled in Stargate."

I agree that it's okay to say; my point is that it invariably leads to everyone tearing down on everyone else's series ranking, and really gets off from the key point: praise, or criticism of Enterprise that is expressed as a subjective comparison.

 

[Raz]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
You consider my "dismissive" attitude rude.

To be honest, there are times that I do.

I consider the sarcastic attitude and subtle putdowns of many of even the "responsible critics" here rude -- for example, suggesting that when about 80 percent of the respondents here like an episode it's because "there's a sucker born every minute" isn't a flame under the rules, but you can't make it out as anything other than "dismissive" of the opinions of the folks who are expressing a positive opinion of the show.

I agree; I'm not sure if I expressed it here, but there are many things like that that should be warnable (if it isn't already).

Of course, i'm probably guilty of having said similar things in the past, though I like to think that I didn't.

They can moderate the rudeness right out of TrekBBS if they like -- which would be fine, in a lot of ways -- but it's gonna have to be sauce for the goose and gander alike.

I'm with you on that one. Bring on the sauce. I'm just chasing a liberal (no political connotations there) application. Bloody a few noses, as I always say.

You know, it's funny. I got banned from a different forum a while back for objecting to the overly strict rules and heavy enforcement. Now, in many forums I go to, I see why they were necessary. There's just too many rude bastards on the internet.

 

[1001001]

Posted by Temis the Vorta:
Just accept the fact that others' motivations are their own and really none of your business anyway.

I think this is exactly what we're asking members of the forum to do, put very succinctly.

Well said.

 

[Ptrope]

Posted by SilveRisa:
Interregnum, the ep that was so good you had to believe it to see it.

Hey, SilveRisa, can I use that as my sig?

I definitely agree with the "hands off" concept for people on the show. I don't have a problem with criticizing their work, and I really don't have a problem with criticizing them personally where it deals with that work ("Berman and Braga don't seem to care about the franchise's continuity, or the fans' expectations of it, and frequently seem to give the fans the finger by rewriting it, just because they can, when they could just as easily, and profitably, embrace some of the things fans have taken the time to hash out, and actually integrate them into the 'official' canon.") If we can form an opinion, based upon the evidence of the shows, that its creators are insensitive to the expectations of the very people who, in one way or another, pay their salaries, I don't have a problem with either reading or expressing those opinions, as long as they aren't personal attacks, and aren't totally and obviously groundless. Threatening them, questioning their sexuality, politics, religion, connections to cults or what not, are very definitely out of place, just the same as it should be for assertions about our fellow members.

And as a card-carrying thread-extender, I don't have a problem with someone singling out a portion of a long post and responding only to it, as long as it's relevant, and he doesn't use it merely to misquote and/or dismiss the rest of the post or its poster; I think this is the sort of thing Raz was addressing, but some of the responses seemed to, ironically, miss or ignore that point. Not everything I or someone else has to say is of interest to everyone, and I don't expect them to quote every bit, or address every bit, but I know I get frustrated and irritated when a point or points I or someone else have made are dismissed in such a way.

 

[Ptrope]

Posted by Dennis Bailey:
I consider the sarcastic attitude and subtle putdowns of many of even the "responsible critics" here rude -- for example, suggesting that when about 80 percent of the respondents here like an episode it's because "there's a sucker born every minute" isn't a flame under the rules, but you can't make it out as anything other than "dismissive" of the opinions of the folks who are expressing a positive opinion of the show.

I'll own up to that one, and I've been counseled on it already. I didn't think it was the sort of dismissal it's been shown to be, at least I didn't intend it to be, as I count myself in those 80% who liked the show. Taken literally, I agree it comes across that way, and I'm going to try to be more attentive to how my fellow members might respond (and often do) differently to a person's words than to a person's intent. All the smileys in the world don't make up for rudeness.

 

[commodore64]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Great stuff! I find a couple of things a little irksome (of course, I'm perfect -- not):

1) Long discourses without a point. Here, the poster types a long opinion that has nothing to do with the topic. I think we've all seen our fair share of those and doesn't need an example.

2) 30 posts on page 1 that all have a similar theme. For example (hangs head in shame) I was anti-Xindi Sloth. There was at one point oodles of Sloth threads, but rather than post to that thread, people created a new one about Sloths. I'd like to encourage posters to use threads already started until they're all used up.

Terrific input on being nice. Sometimes it's easy to get your undies in a wad about something -- favorite character dissed, etc.

And nice thought about ignoring trolling, but it is incredibly hard. I know the mods can't be everywhere and some folks make a post and run.

 

[Mallory]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I'm a long time ENT forum regular, although I'll admit my time here has been a bit more limited since joining the staff.

I've generally tried to take the viewpoint that people either like, dislike or are neutral about the series for reasons that are important to them. And I try to respect that because I know why I, myself, either like or dislike something is bound to seem trivial to at least one other person here.

Most of the points I'd make have already been ably covered here by folks who are far more regular than I am anymore. Like Dennis, Ptrope, Raz and Stewey, as well as the staff.

There are a couple of things that I may have missed in (admittedly) trying to skim this thread and post something meaningful. My Dreaded Real Life is a bit hectic today.

The one word/line response thing bothers me. Please don't tell me my idea is stupid. Tell me why. I may very well agree with you. But unless I know why, it's really difficult to lend any credence to your argument.

The other thing I find irritating, although not as frequently in this forum as others, is the "Drive By Thread". Wherein someone drops in, posts something controversial and then never returns. I really think that if someone is going to take the time to assemble/start a topic that they should have enough interest in it to come back and either agree or disagree with what other people have said. After all, it is a discussion board.

Finally, I wholeheartedly agree with 1001001 in that it's not so much what you say, but how you say it. I know sometimes folks can say things that make someone's blood boil, but there's better ways to respond than by flaming in them.

I'll try and drop in a little later when I have real free time. In the meantime, keep up the good work here folks! All of us in this community can surely make it work better, no matter how good (or bad) it might seem to be.

 

[Top41]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

You're all bringing up really great points. Thanks to everyone here for taking the time to comment and discuss.

I have lots to say/respond to, but I'll keep it somewhat brief for now and just address a few points.

I think a lot of the problems come in to play when people get too personal. Be it with a poster's intelligence (based on which shows a person likes/dislikes, etc.), character, taste, etc. all the way to the insults about the show's producers, it's just not in good taste or condusive to good discussion.

I agree with Temis that sometimes show comparisons are relevant, though I also agree with Raz that it can easily devolve into this series vs. that series bickering, and often does. It would be nice to be able to make comparisons between Trek shows without having to feel as though one is being threatened or looked down upon. All of the different shows have their strengths and weaknesses, and I think comparing them to ENT can make for interesting discussion (I like Temis's example).

I'm not crazy about dismissive posts. I'm of the opinion it's rather rude and frankly disrespectful. And I think that's at the heart of the forum's problems--people aren't respectful and polite to each other as much as they should be. Dismissing someone's post out of hand doesn't really leave room for much debate, and also leaves the "dismissee" feeling kind of resentful. It's the kind of thing I'd like to see cut back on here. There are always other alternatives (briefly/succinctly countering their argument, not responding, responding to a different point the person made, etc.) to dismissing someone out of hand.

 

[theenglish]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I didn't read all of the posts, but I'd like to support Stewey. Although, I disagree with most of his opinions he does get a bad rap on this board, and the people that attack him have sometimes gotten quite personal.

In fact, the biggest problem I have with this board is just how personal people can get. "Flaming" has to be taken seriously on this board.

For example, comments such as, "I can't believe you like this episode. Anyone who thinks this episode was as good as even the poorest of DS9 must be an ****** idiot." should not be allowed.

 

[Xenoclone]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Well, all I can say is a lot of issues could be resolved if everyone tried to be a bit more tactful. Now, we all get grumpy, irritated, etc... and might lose our cool, but this is more of a general statement than anything else.

I used to participate in this online writers critique group. Obviously, something as sensitive as critiquing another person's written work can lead to quite a few hurt feelings. You have to have a thick skin, because even if only one out of eleven people tell you your story sucks, it sticks with you. Fortunately, they have sort of a guide to tactfullness, if you will, that they published here.

Perhaps the BBS could post a similar guideline, such as we all learn to express ourselves without offending others?

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I've been saying half-kiddingly for months that there should be an Enterprise Meta-Forum so that ENT regulars can go talk about the Enterprise Forum itself, and that such a forum would have more interesting discussions from time to time than ENT itself. I think this thread is a great idea.

Since the series premiered, we've lost a lot of posters because of the ugliness in the forum. Most of the ones I know about are female. They found alternative fora because they were being hounded in ENT for being fans of Reed or Trip. In fact, entire boards were created by both sets of fans precisely because they wanted an alternative place to meet. How many people have left because they were hounded and nothing was done about it? How many just gave up without putting up a fight?

On the one hand you can say that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you don't value your own opinion enough, get off the board. But I think that truly sucks and that shouldn't be the case.

My point here is that while it's fairly easy to participate in the pissing contest stuff, it's hard to avoid it if you choose to discuss certain issues. If you don't come here to beat your chest, it can be pretty rough.

I don't know what I can add to what people have said before. Raz, for one, made some good points. I think generalization about groups of posters is a real problem--gushers, bashers, "prudes," etc. Such characterizations don't move the discussion along at all.

I think the moderation has improved. I think the "Notify Moderator" feature is a great addition to the board. I also think it took waaaaaay to long for a certain stalker to get banned (this happened right around when Lady C became a mod, in case anyone wants a time frame of reference). There were several posts that were direct slams against individual posters (myself included), as well as very generalized slams against entire groups, and they went unpunished. I personally hit "Notify Moderator" several times, or found that someone else had done it before me, and those vicious posts went unremarked upon. I found that very frustrating.

I think the key point here is the under-the-wire trolling. I don't know how you fix it, and it's always guaranteed to result in an MA thread, doubtless created by a perpetrator pleading innocence.

I don't know if the key is naming new types of warnable benaviors, or if that just creates more of a problem. Trolling seems a bit vague and difficult to apply.

On the issue of multiple threads, I think the sloth thing over the summer and the Interregnum thing last week are fun, but after the tenth thread it's just too much. We were told a long time ago to keep the worship threads concentrated, and that was enforced. I think a similar standard should be applied, especially when threads replicate each other. Or when they're about whether sloths wear diapers or enjoy monkey-type sex.

Well, I can't say I've offered what I feel is wonderully helpful feedback, but this is what's on my mind in the given moment.

Cheers,
Thang

 

[Tripped Trucker XIII]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

oops. I thought this is the ENT Forum Meditation Thread :x

Nice discussion here, but I still adhere to the "If you don't like it, don't watch it (and don't come here bothering us either)" statement. They might be old as heck, but so are the Ten Commandments.

Respectfully,
TT13

 

[Mallory]

Posted by SilveRisa:
That's why fans who disagree can still rib each other and have fun on nonsensical discussions such as the clear superiority of the Xindi Sloths to all other lifeforms, and Interregnum, the ep that was so good you had to believe it to see it.

SilveRisa got to this before I did and I agree with this completely (as well as the rest of the post). Admittedly, sometimes the "fun" can appear to get out of control, but initial burst seems to subside fairly quickly. Personally I don't have a problem with skipping over threads here I don't want to read. I have to do enough of that over in GTD. I sometimes find it difficult to understand why someone would get so wound up over something that normally disappears in couple or few days.

Another things I've always wondered about is the tendency for some posters to look down on the 'shippers who post here. Whether its Tuckerites or Reed Ragers, those are topics that are important to the people that post in those threads. Fortunately, this seems to have died down a great deal lately which is good. But sometimes folks should think about how they'd feel if someone dropped into an important thread to them and made fun of their interest.

(Edited to add the following)

Miss Thang beat me to it and got her post in while I was putting mine together. Well said Miss Thang. And once again I've learned to never try and keep up with a fast moving thread while I'm at work.

 

[Miss Thang]

^^I think that's in part because the shipper threads have tapered off since their heyday, and because a few certain posters have apparently been permabanned. Again.

 

[MvRojo]

I think that any changes would be hard for people since the posters are very polarized for the most part. Those who like the show really like it, and those who hate the show really hate it. There are of course a lot of moderate people on both sides, but they don't seem to be the problem.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Good points brought up so far and thanks to everyone for participating. We really want to make this forum a better place to hang out and discuss the show.

First off I'd like to agree with Dennis on the "insulting the producers/writers" personally. I've always found it personally distasteful myself and have been meaning to bring it up for discussion with my fellow mods.

Secondly, labeling of posters is really becoming a problem (and to some degree it always was). Terms like Basher, Gusher, Prude or Juvenile (the last to popping up whenever T'Pol appears to be doing anything that might be remotely construed as sexy ) seem to pop up prevalently for no good reason.

It automatically puts people who get labeled on the defensive and cause's a feeling of their points being dismissed out of hand by anyone who hold's the opposite opinion.

I'd personally like to see it stopped completely.

More thoughts later

 

[Mallory]

Posted by MvRojo:
I think that any changes would be hard for people since the posters are very polarized for the most part. Those who like the show really like it, and those who hate the show really hate it.

Playing the idealist, I think it's entirely possible for people at radically different ends of the spectrum on any issue to have a civilized discussion of it. Where things tend to come unwound is over making it personal, whether perceived or real. And I agree, avoiding that can sometimes be very difficult. But I would argue that if everyone at least tried, a large percentage of the problems and hosility that sometimes appears in this forum would evaporate.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Miss Thang:
I think the key point here is the under-the-wire trolling. I don't know how you fix it, and it's always guaranteed to result in an MA thread, doubtless created by a perpetrator pleading innocence.

Two things I think would help:

1) Allow multiple "Notify Moderator" entries by different userids - this would call attention to a post that many people see as a problem, not just one.

2) Allow a short "reason" text field along with the notification, whereby a notifying user can explain what they think the issue is. Even if it's a one word thing such as "trolling".

Under-the-wire trolling sucks. I think in a way Moderator Actions (the forum) doesn't help, because borderline trollings that earn borderline warnings generate threads in MA. For example, the last thing i'd want to do, as a mod, is have to defend each and every one of my borderline decisions in MA - so i'd end up only making the clear-cut calls. That's what I mean.

Like I said, under the wire trolling sucks.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Things that bother me

As someone said people actually expecting you to read all their rather lengthy posts every single time they make them.

People who compare an episode of Enterprise to every single other Star Trek series episode ever made or better yet every single thing ever done whether TV show, movie, book, or anything else no matter how obscure the reference may be.

I dislike the fact that people constantly comment on a show that they say the hate or dislike. There opinions never waiver and is consistantly negative. I think this fosters hostility because I don't think the average person thinks it is rationale to watch a show you totally hate. I don't see how you can discuss a show that that you do not like at all on some level. Apparently though the board rules say it is ok so I it is therefore acceptable, but I really don't see how you can have a positive discussion with someone that only has negative opinions about the show.