ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate!!!

[Lady Conqueror]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^And why do you think that is Dennis? Because Warnings are supposed to be there to say,

"hey, change the way you're posting because what you've been doing is unnacceptable"

Now how many people here, some in this very thread, get warned, even banned and then turn around and keep on posting the exact same way with the exact same comments over and over and over again.

then you try and crack down on them and whole board goes up because we're suddenly Nazi-mods who are over-reacting to the slightest thing.

So we're over-reacting, so we back off and issue friendlies and hope that'll cause you to change your ways.

But No!

Then we're going to light and allowing everyone to get away with anything.

We can't seem to win with this situation.

We're posters, just like you - we sure as hell aren't getting paid. We're doing our best. But we need everyone to work to make themselves and this place less hostile, because change won't come from us alone.

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

I wonder if a poll on where people situate themselves re: basher, gusher, neutral would be of any help (or did we do this already while I was off doing crystal meth with that 30-year-old wunderkind, Rufus Wainwright?).

Personally, I'd like to see the extremists on both sides get their agenda on the table and then get over it so the rest of us who view things in less, um, partisan terms can get on with it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lady Conqueror:
^And why do you think that is Dennis? Because Warnings are supposed to be there to say,

"hey, change the way you're posting because what you've been doing is unnacceptable"

You don't get it, LC. The mods here never do.

This place isn't modded the way the DS9 and TOS forums, for example, are -- people get smacked pretty fast in those places for acting out, and remarkably people behave better there (a phenomenon which is treated as fortuitous).

This forum is like a g-damned hockey game; it has been for years. If one team decides to play by the rules and not fight, they get high-sticked. Any one who takes your suggestions to "please hit 'notify mod'" and "change the way you're posting because your behavior is unacceptable" finds themselves being insulted and provoked with regularity and without recourse -- and that goes for bashers and gushers and fans.

Until there's a consistent policy here of coming down hard on everyone whose intention in posting is to annoy, insult or provoke others, nothing will change except the cast of characters. The fairly nice folk who just like the show and want to talk about it don't stay here very long, for the most part.

You know that it's not at all tough to figure out what posts to warn for -- On the days that you guys get frustrated and crack down, you don't have any trouble at all hitting with about 98% accuracy. The problem is that you all know that it would be an enormous amount of unpaid work to go through this forum every day and make it conform, by warning people, to the same behavior as the other Trek forums (and spend all that additional time babysitting the folks in "Moderator Actions" who whine about their warnings).

Then you back off. As long as enforcement here is a matter of rounding up the usual suspects on the days that you all get ticked off -- until there's a real policy change here -- what you call "behaving properly" is simply a kind of rhetorical unilateral disarmament. People know that, and so our behavior doesn't change.

 

[Volpone]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

OK. I realize the brainstorming portion of this post is long past, but this just hit me:

One of the gripes of the pro-ENT camp is that the people who don't like ENT are always raining on their parade. One way to possibly mitigate conflict in this forum might be to tighten the definition of what constitutes ENT discussion. Send any posts that wind up becoming "which series is better?" off to General Trek. Anyone who says "Well, it's no DS-9" or "ENT is the best 'Trek series ever!"--WHOOSH! Off to General Trek. Send hypothetical "'Trek that might've been" discussions off to "Future of 'Trek." Quite frankly, I'd rather this policy wasn't implemented, but hey--if we're brainstorming, this is something to think about.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Volpone:
OK. I realize the brainstorming portion of this post is long past, but this just hit me:

One of the gripes of the pro-ENT camp is that the people who don't like ENT are always raining on their parade. One way to possibly mitigate conflict in this forum might be to tighten the definition of what constitutes ENT discussion. Send any posts that wind up becoming "which series is better?" off to General Trek. Anyone who says "Well, it's no DS-9" or "ENT is the best 'Trek series ever!"--WHOOSH! Off to General Trek. Send hypothetical "'Trek that might've been" discussions off to "Future of 'Trek." Quite frankly, I'd rather this policy wasn't implemented, but hey--if we're brainstorming, this is something to think about.

Now this is a great idea. Like I said before if you flat out hate ENT and want to compare it to other shows then that discusion should be in the General Forum.

Sadly though that is not the philosophy of this board. It is so topic specific that a thread like that would get moved here. I remember once I started a thread about the UESPA and it got moved to the TOS forum, when I was not talking about TOS at all.

So why we might think it is a good idea, it is not how the board opereates.

 

[Galactus]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lady Conqueror:
Y'know I don't come here to spend all my time handing out warnings and spending all day looking at the warnings page I like reading and joining the discussions too. But

Fine!!

You want harder modding, you got it. Don't come bitchin to me though when y'all get warnings and bans though because you can't think about what and how you say stuff for 2 secs before you start typing.

And this is the problem with this forum, the mods don't want to moderate. It seems like you have a pass the buck attitude. Like you would rather just be a poster or we should just moderate ourselves.

In the other forums this is not a problem, and the mods respond quickly to issues brought up. If you do not have the desire or time to dedicate to being a mod then you should step down and let someone else who does have the time and desire take your place. You were much better as the happy poster instead of being a mod.

Besides it seems like you have plenty of time to respond to a lot of my posts, while totally ignoring others.

 

[Lindley]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

or we should just moderate ourselves.

Well, there's a stunningly logical idea......

But seriously, the one thing that the members can do to help the mods is this: When you have a problem with a post, send a PM to one of the mods. Don't just click the "Notify" button. We get notifications every time someone says anything even remotely bad about Enterprise.....after a while, it begins to get repetative, and we're liable to overlook a notification of a truly problematic post.

PMs are far more effective, at least for this particular forum.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^ Wow, now we're NOT supposed to use the notify moderator button because it's annoying?

Oh, and Dennis.. great post.. agree totally.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
^ Wow, now we're NOT supposed to use the notify moderator button because it's annoying?

Sounds like. Guess they might as well take it off the page.

Oh, and Dennis.. great post.. agree totally.

Thanks.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^ I was going to quote some DS9 to assert my agreement with what you said, but I decided against it..

 

[Lindley]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
^ Wow, now we're NOT supposed to use the notify moderator button because it's annoying?

Oh, and Dennis.. great post.. agree totally.

Not as things stand now, in this forum. If everyone could agree to use it only when appropriate----rather than whenever they're the slightest bit annoyed----it would have more of a use.

The simple fact is, if you want a particular post dealt with, PMs are more likely to get it done than the "Notify Mod" button.

Of course, you can use the button. I'm just telling you how it is.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lindley:
If everyone could agree to use it only when appropriate----rather than whenever they're the slightest bit annoyed----it would have more of a use.

It's possible that what you choose to consider "the slightest bit annoyed" is in fact folks telling the mods the very thing that they refuse to deal with.

 

[Lindley]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

^So, you'd like us to completely disregard the opinions of half the people in here, and warn for any comment that puts ENT in a bad light?

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Not to speak for Dennis, but you should be nailing both sides. Anyone who steps over the line and begins trolling - even if it's subtle - should be dealt with.

You're not really giving what Dennis is saying a fair shake, IMO. Don't put words in his mouth, eh?

The biggest problem of these forums is all the borderline shit. And the reason they're a problem is because they're borderline, and as such, they aren't dealt with. So there's this big unchallenged undercurrent of sniping done in such a way that the mods don't really want to touch it for fear of a huge MA kerfuffle or looking like nazis. It's just stupid, and is (unintentionally) greenlighting more underhanded spitefulness that totally ruins the atmosphere of discussion that I think we used to have around here sometime before the series premiered.

 

[Miss Thang]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Building on Raz's post, I'd like to point out that borderline trolling came up in the early pages of this thread, as well. It's been a consistent problem from the beginning; the targets have shifted over time. Before the basher/gusher pissy stuff started, it was 'shippers (Ragers, Trippers, etc.). The policy then was to stay out of threads you know you won't like, rather than trolling people you knew you'd disagree with. That policy worked--when it was enforced. Otherwise, you just got more of the same, the same trolls who hounded people for years on end, making the place inhospitable and driving off people who don't think it's worth it to hang out in a place where assholes get away with trolling while nice people who play by the rules are repeatedly shat upon. (Lovely imagery. You're welcome.)

Seems to me we have something of the same thing going on here. People troll gushers and bashers in threads in which they know they're not going to like what they see. I think the difference, though, is that instead of staying in one or two threads, the acrimony permeates several threads. And people start threads whose titles directly address one of the factions (seems like these are usually directed at bashers, but I could be mistaken). Why? What possibly can be gained from that other than more pee puddles?

On the issue of self-governance, I think the 'shipper wars of late are instructive. There are people here who vehemently love or hate specific potential relationships. The current 'shipper thread is at over 300 posts. It's gotten ugly a few times, but for the most part people keep their anger (and whatever else) contained in that thread (with a few notable exceptions), and they've made concerted attempts to try to be nice to each other even as they disagree so strongly.

In short, yes, modding is necessary, but people have to regulate themselves, too. I do think tougher modding would be a good thing, but it's not fair to lump this all on the mods. No one makes people get up others' noses; they do that on their own.

Or is it fun to deliberately piss people off?

 

[T'Bonz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lindley:

Not as things stand now, in this forum. If everyone could agree to use it only when appropriate----rather than whenever they're the slightest bit annoyed----it would have more of a use.

Yep. When used properly, I found it very useful (and it quoted the post in case someone decided to edit, which happened a time or two.)

A very small minority used it inappropriately, that is for every freakin' thing. Problem with that, is that if something legit came up, one tended to not notice if it was from a specific poster if said poster always had his/her hand on the button.

The simple fact is, if you want a particular post dealt with, PMs are more likely to get it done than the "Notify Mod" button.

Um...er...not exactly. In my case, after I do my sweep, I may be online (or in the room and not on the comp), but not on Trekbbs. Therefore, the notify mod button worked well in that case, as my email loads quite often (I do know that I can have it set for notifying me when receiving PMs too, but most PMs aren't in the nature of "quick! Get your butt here! Someone is being an ass!" while I knew that most "moderator notifications" might be worthy of a look at it and the thread to which it referenced.)

Of course, in emergency or if someone was being a total ass and another poster thought it might be prudent to get hold of a mod straightaway, one of the message services worked best. I had my chat addys in my profile and some did ping me (I showed offline in ICQ to keep away a few troublemakers not related to ENT forum) but said in my profile that if I'm online and it was important, that I would answer back) when there was a problem.

Point of this is, the mod button is useful when properly used. Many times, it at least had me take a look at the offending post to see if it merited action, and most times, the post at least needed a moderator poking his/her head in and saying "yo, I'm here and watching, chill out."

Improperly used as a tattle button, it can be a pain in the ass.

---

Mods do work hard in ENT. (I feel like I'm on vacation in TOS forum, much less traffic and much less problems because of the lower volume.) But just because they don't take an action that you deem necessary doesn't mean they don't do jack or are bad mods. It is not easy to find the proper balance in this forum - we never wanted to be jackbooted mods (as you can no doubt tell, I was always the rather lenient mod, I like to assume that given a friendly, folks will realize they're adults and throttle it back. Sometimes that worked, sometimes not.), yet being too lenient is bad.

The problem is, there is a small minority of posters who adamantly believe that the forum should be run "x" way (and often some in that group oppose each other in how it should be run) and who are also the problem, jumping on those with whom they disagree and then crying when the mods don't do what they want. It really is tricky trying to figure out what to do in that case.

No one will ever be happy with the moderating in here. Swing too much to heavy moderating, and MA will light up like a Christmas tree. Too little, and all hell breaks loose. The mods are trying to find the right balance to make the forum run effectively (note: NOT to make their lives easier, although that is a bonus if that happens), but to keep things reasonably calm, please most folks and keep them sane.

If folks in here would cooperate with the mods instead of thinking that they can solve the problem by doing what the posters won't, things would be much better.

Unfortunately, it's easier to say "well, the mods can't run this place" instead of saying "well, maybe I can temper my words and not say precisely what I think."

Do you guys REALLY want a heavy-handed forum? Have you been to other boards where they have them? They're not fun, it's like walking on eggshells.

 

[Lindley]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
Not to speak for Dennis, but you should be nailing both sides. Anyone who steps over the line and begins trolling - even if it's subtle - should be dealt with.

You're not really giving what Dennis is saying a fair shake, IMO. Don't put words in his mouth, eh?

The biggest problem of these forums is all the borderline shit. And the reason they're a problem is because they're borderline, and as such, they aren't dealt with. So there's this big unchallenged undercurrent of sniping done in such a way that the mods don't really want to touch it for fear of a huge MA kerfuffle or looking like nazis. It's just stupid, and is (unintentionally) greenlighting more underhanded spitefulness that totally ruins the atmosphere of discussion that I think we used to have around here sometime before the series premiered.

You know, you're right, and yet its just not as simple to handle as you make it sound......

 

[Lord Garth]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Volpone, one initial problem with moving threads from ENT to GTD when someone says "ENT is no DS9!" in a thread that's predominantly about ENT, it would make it easy for bashers or even gushers ("ENT is the best since TOS!") to get any thread they want moved to GTD. Someone would be bound to take advantage of that. You can't have a policy in place where the moment another series is mentioned it gets moved. The only way it would be fair to move the thread to GTD would be if the topic itself were "DS9 vs. ENT", as opposed to "ENT" where someone just happens to mention DS9 somewhere along the line.

Others, say what you will about LC. She's gone out of her way to try to improve the atmosphere of the forum. She's gone out of her way to make this be a place for people to want to visit, people besides the ones who want to get into fights. Moderating isn't just giving out warnings and closing threads. It's more than just that. Anyone can give out warnings (whether or not they'd give the right warnings is another question ). And yes, I am a moderator who likes to take care of problems quickly, but moderating is also setting the tone, maintaining a community, and an important thing is to have good relations between the moderators and the posters. It may not matter to a lot of posters, but it matters to us. I'd rather have a moderator that tries to reach out and is approachable, than someone who only shows up to give warnings.

I'd prefer having moderators like LC who want to be here, who care about you, and want to improve things than a moderator who just wants to hand out warnings and cares nothing for whether or not people want to visit or feel welcome.

Even this mediation thread is showing exactly where problems are and is getting people to speak there minds.

 

[Raz]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Lord Garth:
Volpone, one initial problem with moving threads from ENT to GTD when someone says "ENT is no DS9!" in a thread that's predominantly about ENT, it would make it easy for bashers or even gushers ("ENT is the best since TOS!") to get any thread they want moved to GTD. Someone would be bound to take advantage of that. You can't have a policy in place where the moment another series is mentioned it gets moved.

I think what he might have meant is threads that start that way.

If someone comes in and drags the thread off ENT by discussing the merits or lack thereof of, say, DS9, they should be told to get back on topic - ENT - or risk a warning.

(There is a warning category for offtopic spam, right?)

I mean, yeah, cross series comparisons are okay, but there have been times when I - yes, me - has started discussing DS9 in detail in an ENT thread in order to defend something. I know that's veering off topic when I do it, so I try and limit it to just the one detailed post.

Really, it's the inflammatory OMG IT SUCKS COMPARED TO [X] or IT ROCKS OVER [X] that need to be moved post-haste. The ones that start off as cross-series discussions.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: ENT Forum Mediation Thread--Please Participate

Posted by Raz:
If someone comes in and drags the thread off ENT by discussing the merits or lack thereof of, say, DS9, they should be told to get back on topic - ENT - or risk a warning.

Hey, wait a min -- uh, I mean, "oh yeah".

Aside from that -- people are being told they "risk a warning" all the fricking time here. Screw the friendlies -- warn for every damned thing that goes over the line, and keep doing it for more than three days, and maybe things will start to improve.

The population will decrease as well, of course. Over time the mods would probably have less work here than they do now, because troublemakers just wouldn't hang out here -- or we'd fall in line.