Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[Mytran]

First, I like the idea of only two Transporter Rooms, one in the saucer (the main transporter) mostly for personnel, and one in the secondary hull for both personnel and cargo (Dagger of the Mind). Because the machinery IS complicated and and takes up a lot of space, this is a better argument for fewer rooms, not more.
Second, ship evacuation via Transporter Room. Two rooms, six pads each, cycle time about 30 seconds (debatable but in the ballpark). 2x6x2=24 people per minute. 430 crew / 24 = ~18 minutes to evacuate the ship. YMMV

Food dispenser in Transporter Room: Why carry bulky food and water down to the planet when all you have to do is whip out your communicator and tell Mr. Kyle to beam you down some water or food? Kyle goes to the food dispenser, orders a chicken sandwich with coffee and beams it down to Kirk, hot and fresh.

That makes a fair bit of sense and I like the maths too!
Also, since I am willing to concede that the Engine Rooms underwent significant renovations between the first two seasons then I suppose a few improvements in the Transporter Room are not beyond belief. I wonder which one intrudes into the corridor?

 

[yotsuya]

I'm leaning toward 6 transporter rooms. 4 in the saucer (where most of the people are) and 2 in the secondary hull with two cargo transporters that are not suitable for people except in an emergency. The FJ 22 person emergency transporters don't fit with TOS very well. That might be a late 23rd century thing before they improved the transporter to do accurately do point to point transporting which means you don't need as many dedicated rooms or pads.

 

[yotsuya]

That makes a fair bit of sense and I like the maths too!
Also, since I am willing to concede that the Engine Rooms underwent significant renovations between the first two seasons then I suppose a few improvements in the Transporter Room are not beyond belief. I wonder which one intrudes into the corridor?

If you are going to count every single change in transporter room set as a different room, then they have like 15 transporter rooms. I prefer to think that each different major layout might be a different room. One clean, one with a food synthesizer, and one with the extra scanner. I think that is how the Thermians would do it.

 

[Mytran]

If you are going to count every single change in transporter room set as a different room, then they have like 15 transporter rooms. I prefer to think that each different major layout might be a different room. One clean, one with a food synthesizer, and one with the extra scanner. I think that is how the Thermians would do it.

Why 15? I've already conceded that minor renovations through the seasons are perfectly believable. The only major differences are the ones with different scanner station alcoves, which makes 3 T-rooms max.
Dedicated cargo transporters are definitely not a TOS thing, as demonstrated by Dagger Of the Mind

 

[Ronald Held]

Never thought that the food slots are in a transporter room to beam food and drink to Landing Parties.

 

[Maurice]

Oh for Pete's sake...

Engine rooms: 93
Transporter rooms: .9
Cabins: 0
Lob Cabins: 273
Bridges: 3 (Brooklyn, Golden Gate, Tacoma Narrows...oops)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh for Pete's sake...

Engine rooms: 93
Transporter rooms: .9
Cabins: 0
Lob Cabins: 273
Bridges: 3 (Brooklyn, Golden Gate, Tacoma Narrows...oops)

No wonder Abe Lincoln showed up.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Oh for Pete's sake...

Engine rooms: 93
Transporter rooms: .9
Cabins: 0
Lob Cabins: 273
Bridges: 3 (Brooklyn, Golden Gate, Tacoma Narrows...oops)

You're forgetting the bowling alley!

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Yeah, I always thought that was strange. The only in-universe justification I could come up with was outfitting outgoing landing parties with rations. (Something that was incidentally never done - I can't remember any landing party ever heading out with food or water.)

How about to provide weapons or gear from the armory. It's not a TNG replicator, but it the slots can deliver foods from the "galley" then maybe they can deliver gear. The ability to get a chicken soup is just a side-benefit

Another possible in-universe justification for food slots in the transporter room(s) would be that on-duty operators, who might be at their stations for long periods, would be able to grab a quick meal without leaving their station, this might be particularly useful for those times when they need to there to beam someone up or down at a moments notice.

Because the machinery IS complicated and and takes up a lot of space, this is a better argument for fewer rooms, not more.

I'm leaning toward 6 transporter rooms. 4 in the saucer (where most of the people are) and 2 in the secondary hull with two cargo transporters that are not suitable for people except in an emergency. The FJ 22 person emergency transporters don't fit with TOS very well. That might be a late 23rd century thing before they improved the transporter to do accurately do point to point transporting which means you don't need as many dedicated rooms or pads.

I see the ship blueprints in the FJSTM to be those of the current type of Constitution-class ship being built when they were supposedly written in the 23rd century. They are acurate to some degree, but ships built a bit earlier or later could be different.

One clean, one with a food synthesizer, and one with the extra scanner.

In this instance, you all and do TAS agree. In "The Terratin Incident," one is called "Transporter Room 3."

Dedicated cargo transporters are definitely not a TOS thing, as demonstrated by Dagger Of the Mind

When the doctor escapes from the cargo, he is stated to be loose on Deck 14. So that is either the bottom deck of the Saucer, same as the Forward Phaser Room, or it is a transporter room in the Secondary Hull.

 

[yotsuya]

Why 15? I've already conceded that minor renovations through the seasons are perfectly believable. The only major differences are the ones with different scanner station alcoves, which makes 3 T-rooms max.
Dedicated cargo transporters are definitely not a TOS thing, as demonstrated by Dagger Of the Mind

A cargo transporter would be for bulk cargo and supplies. Not the couple of small boxes we see in the Transporter room. So that episode doesn't prove or disprove anything. it is just an FJ theory I happen to see the point to that would allow for the quick evacuation of the ship.

 

[Jayson1]

So how many crew quarters do ya think the ship has? Also does the ship have storage compartments since they replicate tools and spare parts and where are they located on the ship?


Jason

 

[Phaser Two]

So how many crew quarters do ya think the ship has? Also does the ship have storage compartments since they replicate tools and spare parts and where are they located on the ship?


Jason

I always figured that everyone on the ship probably couldn't have their own rooms (which we saw in TUC). We really only saw evidence of single, private officers' quarters, and I believe we saw Rand's quarters in one ep (The Enemy Within?), but she seemed to be pretty senior. Whether or not you think everyone has their own room drives the number of crew quarters and might best be addressed first.

 

[yotsuya]

The various sets of deck plans for Kirk's Enterprise have senior officers with their own room and the lower crew sharing in 2 or 4 depending on who did it. FJ had suits with 2 people per cabin and 2 cabins share a bathroom. But it kind of depends on how much rec room there is. My thought on such a large ship is that every crew member should have some space to themself, but more room would be devoted to joint recreation space. That is really what we see in the series. The crew gathers in rec rooms off duty to eat, play games, sing songs, and who knows what else the 23rd century has to offer. We see multiple rec rooms (same set with different features), a gym, a theater, have a bowling alley mentioned in dialog, and i'm sure there is more. In the TMP refit we have a much larger rec room and a botanical garden. The ship should have facilities to keep the crew entertained off duty and facilities for them to further their personal and work related hobbies. I'd say at a minimum, the ship can accomodate 450. If I ever get around to laying out the deck plans, I'd probably aim for 500. We see several times that there is no concern with having more people on board, like the Karidian players or the colonists from This Side of Paradise. Though from what we see in Elaan of Troyius, the senior officers have nicer quarters than the guest quarters.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

A cargo transporter would be for bulk cargo and supplies. Not the couple of small boxes we see in the Transporter room. So that episode doesn't prove or disprove anything. it is just an FJ theory I happen to see the point to that would allow for the quick evacuation of the ship.

Nope.

A) The idea of cargo transporters and 22-person emergency transporters as additional types of transporters can be found in The Making Of Star Trek (1968), page 192. FJ reportedly used TMoST as a primary reference, so there's essentially no doubt that the idea for these additional types of transporters originates in TMoST, especially since the number of 22 people for the emergency transporters is the same in both TMoST and the FJTM and Connie blueprints.

B) TMoST differentiates between personnel and cargo transporters. It is therefore a distinct possibility that cargo transporters are not rated to transport personnel. The cargo transporter console in the FJTM has a different configuration from the regular transporter room console: there are two banks of sliders with two sliders per bank, instead of one bank of three sliders. Not to mention, the pad configuration is totally different for cargo. These differences support (though naturally do not prove) the interpretation that cargo transporters are not safe for transporting personnel.

 

[Ronald Held]

In TOS, rooms seem for sleeping and grooming, for all but the most senior officers.
Why not two per room for ensigns and lieutenants?

 

[C57D]

So how many crew quarters do ya think the ship has? Also does the ship have storage compartments since they replicate tools and spare parts and where are they located on the ship?


Jason

In the excellent 1 inch to 10 feet plans by FASA for their STTRPG, the variable height "undercuts" (the best term I can currently think of) beneath the saucer are used for storage, which makes sense to me.

 

[Henoch]

Though from what we see in Elaan of Troyius, the senior officers have nicer quarters than the guest quarters.

Not necessarily. I think Elaan was put up in Uhura's quarters to keep her in the mist of the ship's officer quarters for security reasons. We find in the initial Ship Log this is a top-secret diplomatic mission. Petri the ambassador says, "Another thing you should understand, Captain. You have as much at stake as I have. Your superiors made the statement that failure of this mission would be as catastrophic for Federation planning as it would be for our two planets." The extra security was well founded since there was a Klingon agent/spy/saboteur on board and a Klingon war vessel stalking and later attacking them.

 

[Henoch]

In TOS, rooms seem for sleeping and grooming, for all but the most senior officers.
Why not two per room for ensigns and lieutenants?

Why unnecessarily put more than one person in the same room if you have the space. @Shaw did an analysis on cabin space and he concluded the 947 foot ship can have ~299 TOS-type cabins on Decks 4, 5 and 6, or around 149 singles and 150 doubles. This easily houses the 430 crew plus gives 19 extra single cabins for passengers and guests.

Journey to Babel (114 delegates with 32 of them Ambassadors, i.e. need 32 of the best rooms) and This Side of Paradise (150 men, women and children) were probably the only times that space on the ship was a real issue. I wonder if Kirk sticks the 150 colonists in the cargo hold like Picard did.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Journey to Babel (114 delegates with 32 of them Ambassadors, i.e. need 32 of the best rooms) and This Side of Paradise (150 men, women and children) were probably the only times that space on the ship was a real issue. I wonder if Kirk sticks the 150 colonists in the cargo hold like Picard did.

This may be part of the reason why FJ added so many cabins in the secondary hull and thus making it, in effect, capable of acting as an alternative life-boat to the primary hull.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

I'm afraid that TMoST suffers from the same inconsistency as the series itself. The deck descriptions and the cross section were done by different people and don't agree. And in the cross section there is no 2 story engineering space that we ever see in the series. it has things drawn in that we never witnessed. I'm sticking strictly to the text description of the saucer because that is what the TMP crew were using (by way, I think, of Franz Joseph). TMoST never describes any other deck contents, only saying that the secondary hull was given over to engineering and the hangar. So there I have made use of the cross section, but only so far as the contents go. For the decks I have gone by the windows on the exterior which create a different deck layout. The series itself is even more vague than TMoST and the only thing we ever get in the series to indicate where season 2/3 Main Engineering is comes in the way of a special effect from The Day of the Dove. And we all know how reliable the special effects were. Still, that places it on the same deck as the TMoST cross section does, although a bit forward.

I seem to remember that different episodes used different deck designations for the same location. And with 3 different descriptions of the interior, it isn't surprising. We have Matt Jeffereis cross section which shows 9 decks in the saucer, the season 2 writer's bible listing 11, and the season 1 writer's bible listing 20. So in any episode with a deck reference you have to ask which version they were going by or did they just make it up and did the staff writers bother to correct it. My understanding of Roddenberry's main rewrite focus was to make the story work for the series and be outstanding. So how often did they bother to correct technical details, especially when one of their stated goals was to be vague and leave things unexplained. That is why I don't hold to a strict interpretation of everything in the series. They were using a different standard. It would drive the Thermians insane to try to reconcile all the contradictions. 20 years later when TNG came along, they realized fans cared about those things so they started keeping better track and making things more consistent. I think they Thermians could make an ENT D and even the Refit, but the TOS Enterprise would have them squabbling over details like we are. Without the outside sources and later canon to go by, a lot of these things just have too many variable answers.

I long ago ceased to imagine that there would ever be a consensus on some of these thing, though I had never delved into all the various ways the engineering systems were referenced and that is even more confusing that settling on the length of the ship and how many decks it has. And my project is not just one ship. I am trying to work out the systems of 5 ships simultaniously (TOS Ent, TMP Ent, TFF/TUC Ent, TSFS Excelsior, and Ent B). So I'm looking across a span time (3 years our time, 100 years Trek time) to fill in the gaps and produced somthing logical and functional. I've only glanced at the NX-01 design and left it alone as it is an older system. They only thing I took from it was the horizontal nature of the warp core (which seems to be supported by That Which Survives). So many of the creative drawings of the TOS Enterprise internal systems fail when you run them through the gauntlet of what we see on screen. Even Doug Drexler's drawings for In A Mirror Darkly don't line up with what we see in the show (he has the pipe cathedral as part of the warp drive with the pipes angled the other way and butting up to the hangar). So even in that last appearance of the TOS design we have some further differences. They also gave us some additional sets, which no one in this thread seems to be using (including myself).

I'm hoping in this thread we can continue to whittle down the number of possibilities to something reasonable that can inform the projects we are working on. My drawings are mostly of the equipment, not the function, so I hope my drawings will be like the TOS Enterprise - adaptable to many theories.

Could you clarify in this diagram two items for me?

The orange lines representing a connection to the nacelles: What features on the bottom of the secondary hull do they connect with?

The blue ovoid behind the deflector dish: what is this supposed to be, and does it relate with the set piece from the Phase Two Engine Room from the test footage?

Also, where can we view these diagrams when they are done?