Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Henoch, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. yotsuya

    yotsuya Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    The colors are temporary. The orange are the engineering systems, the red are the engine rooms, green are the turbo shafts, and various other. The final version will be monochrome.

    My drawings are based on the TOS, TMP, TNG, ENT canon. In that, the deflector dish has many functions and there is equipment behind it for that purpose. That is the ovoid. Similarly, my engine system is a horizontal warp core. The large tank is a cylinder that lines up with the big yellow circle on the bottom. In front of that is the deuterium processor over the gray T shape on the bottom. The warp core leads to a vertical shaft topped by a bar wide enough to line up with the pylons. The plasma stream is split in 3 with the third going up to the impulse deck where it powers the impulse engines and all saucer systems (with fusion reactor backups for emergencies and saucer separation). The two plasma conduits go up the pylons to power the warp coils, the same as NX-01, 1701 refit, and 1701-D. I have not bothered to draw the inside of the warp nacelle as of yet. I prefer cross sections to show the inboard exterior of the nacelle rather than the guts. But that could be a separate drawing.

    I don't intend to call out every detail on the drawings. Only those where I have set drawings that fall on the centerline.
     
    publiusr likes this.
  2. yotsuya

    yotsuya Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    I got around to making some corrections over the weekend and drawing the AF Energizer room. What other engineering related rooms are there? Ones that we get a good look at. I was thinking there was one more significant one, but I can't remember what episode.

    Here are the set drawings for The Cage, Season 1 and Seasons 2 & 3. I have WNMHGB, but it didn't fit (too many other sets and there isn't much new there other than the corridor which we never see again).

    [​IMG]
     
    Phaser Two likes this.
  3. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Thanks for the clarification and that makes a lot of sense for placement of those things. I'm still not sure why people are not using the pipe structure as the plasma-transfer conduit/power-transfer-conduit, etc., tying directly into the lines that run to the nacelles, and instead have other "power lines" around them, though. Would anyone care to explain that further? It is a topic that I'm very interested to know more reasons why for that.

    Diagrams look great, and I think the colors are great here too.

    Could someone remind us all what the diameter of the curved corridor shown in the TOS sets would be if it were a full circle? (I know that on the real ship it could vary, but I wanted the set diameter for reference.)

    Also, could someone remind me how many feet into the bottom of the saucer there are before the concavity starts?
     
  4. yotsuya

    yotsuya Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    The pipe structure doesn't line up or make sense as part of the warp core. And when we see any effect in there it relates to power, not the warp drive. That is why I am not using it.

    From the drawings I've done. The inner corridor diameter is 88.7 feet and the outer diameter is 104.7 feet (the corridor width is 8 feet). For a 947 foot long ship, the diameter of the saucer where the curve goes up (at least where I put that deck) is 189 feet in diameter. That nicely fits the max diameter of the set which would be 187 feet. The saucer is about 20 feet tall at the rim and the curve goes in 7 feet.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
    Henoch and Mres_was_framed! like this.
  5. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Thank you for the numbers. I'm trying to see what a 14-deck TOS ship might look like, since 14 is the highest deck mentioned onscreen. They are very helpful in considering this possibility.

    I understand your reasoning, and within the specific confines of your reasoning, I see your point.

    However, I have been re-watching Voyager lately and cannot escape the fact that numerous episodes plots involve the warp-core functioning as a main power generator for numerous ship systems, and thus require some tech solution that may or may not affect warp drive.

    As such, even though Voyager is obviously 110 years later in universe, I think that there does not need to be a distinction between power generating systems and warp generating systems, except in obvious cases like warp coils. Also, in TNG, DS9's Defiant, Voyager, and others, the warp core is the primary focus in the room, with power distribution being secondary. If we are going to use the other shows to fill in unexplained tech in TOS, why would TOS be exactly the opposite of later systems, with a small warp core under the floor and a huge power distribution system visible?

    I'm not sure why my opinion that the pipe structure (the version in the secondary hull, that is) is basically related to a warp core does not seem to be more universally accepted.

    In the saucer engineering, I think a different explanation is likely needed.
     
  6. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back on the Shelf
    If you have two engineering control rooms each with identical looking pipe structures, there's a good chance they serve identical functions. What identical functions make sense for both hulls? Power generation and/or transmission. Easy-peasy. :techman:

    The design of the structure is interesting. It consists of converging/diverging pipes. Logically, what do you put in pipes. Not electrical wires; it would look more like a high voltage switching yard if wired. Either a gas, liquid or plasma make more sense. If you assume it has something to due with power, then both gas and liquid are less likely, and plasma looks most probable.

    Lastly, is it power generation or just transmission? If Power generation, then are the converging pipes bringing two fuels together to react in the central pipe, i.e. a reaction chamber (al la ENT)? Makes the function of the pipe structure more important if that is your goal to assume it must have an important function or why build a set around them and make them the central focus. The problem here is this function would not be identical especially in the primary hull where we don't expect a two fuel reactor like M/AM, rather, we more likely have fusion reactors. So, the pipe structure is probably just for power transmission or a plasma switching yard, then they would have a less important role in the engineering control room sets, i.e. eye candy. In any event, if the function is same in both hulls, there's a good chance that the two pipe structures are connected via a power conduit.
     
  7. yotsuya

    yotsuya Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    I see the pipe structure as taking the plasma generated in the M/AM reactor and converting it into power for the ship. Or at least the first stage with the dilithium crystals being involved before it can be usable. For main power, I have it pulling that first and then diverting some to the saucer while when they need to go to warp, most of the plasma goes to the warp nacelles (to do their magic with the warp coils. I see the white double domed structure in the middle of the floor of the season 2/3 engine room to be the connection to the warp core. It functions much like the warp core does in the movies and TNG, and even later in Voyager. They don't actually do anything with except on rare instances. They are using the terminals around it just like Scotty does in the TOS engine room. And the only time I can recall them focusing on the pipe structure in TOS, it related to power, not warp drive or M/AM reaction.

    That said, I found several cross sections and other details that DO have the pipe structure being part of the warp drive directly, including Doug Drexler's ENT IAMD cross section and other details he has posted since. So you are not alone, but most in this group are going by how it was depicted on screen and that doesn't really fit how they used it on screen.
     
  8. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    Here's a thought, what if the tube structure in the secondary hull engine room really is as big as it looked (based on the real-world forced perspective intention), but the tube chamber in the primary hull engine room was smaller and tapered, and therefore the (in-universe) "illusion" that it is the same size as the other one is just a coincidence?
     
  9. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back on the Shelf
    Why? This makes no engineering sense. Occam's razor: If the two pipe structures look the same, then [wait for it] they are the same. Aah.
     
  10. yotsuya

    yotsuya Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    Yeah, I can see them being the same design, but being different sizes, but not one long and the other squished.
     
  11. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back on the Shelf
    A while back, @Mres_was_framed! asked something about whether you could use the orientation of the nub on the Double Triangular Doohickey (DTD) to possibly determine which Engineering Control Room was being shown in that episode (or something to that effect - I'm too lazy to hunt it up, again.) Anyway, here's a summary of the Season 2/3 nub data I compiled during my original engine room research with my supposition as to which engine room it is.
    My assumptions:
    1. There are only two engine rooms. One in the primary hull and one in the secondary hull,
    2. The nub feature was fixed once set up in a room, i.e. mounted into the floor in-universe.
    3. Engine room plus long curved corridor in TUC = primary hull location, and Engine room in DOTD shows alien leaving the ship = secondary hull. So, nub away from the pipe structure is in the primary hull and nub towards the pipe structure is in the secondary hull.
    [​IMG]
    The Omega Glory showed two engine rooms, but both were the same. Maybe the Exeter was set up different than the Enterprise? Of course, this is just on-screen observed data. Maybe the set-up guys just put the DTD together randomly after tearing it down between some episodes. Season 3 looked most consistent with only one case in ITITNB where it was set up differently (TMOG doesn't really count since it was just stock footage from Season 2 TUC). YMMV by a lot. :shrug:
     
    Mres_was_framed! likes this.
  12. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    That's thing, the "higher the magnification" so to speak, that you use to bisect and trisect hairs, the more inconsistencies you find, best to remember, that at the end of the day, this is just a TV show, and nothing was worked out to the tenth decimal place. Heck, it's a safe bet that the show runners only ever thought that there was just one engine room and hoped the audience wouldn't notice the change from season one, to season two and three.

    Looking at the big picture, I think it's reasonable from both a real-world and in-universe P.O.V. to say that there are two engine rooms; one associated with the Impulse Deck (the Engineering Section) and one associated with the main Engineering Deck (the Engineering Control Room) in the Secondary Hull. Beyond that, it's pretty much conjecture and personal preference as to what each one should, or should not, look like at any given point during the series.
     
  13. yotsuya

    yotsuya Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    I agree Tin_Man. That is one of my main points in my version of the interior of the ship. It is a TV show and they did things at the time that were not in keeping with any sort of exacting set decoration. The details on the DTD and its orientation are not details that I think should mark different locations.
     
  14. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Location:
    On the USS Sovereign
    No time and budget for extreme consistency?
     
  15. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    I think the Exeter engine room scene was either an error or it was showing the whole chamber the other side of where Kirk and McCoy were standing? :D
    JB
     
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back on the Shelf
    A real TAS fan.

    Two engine room set ups in the same large chamber solves some inconsistencies. Resolves finding the correct room when calling "Engineering" and you always get the right room to talk to Scotty. Also, resolves calling for "Engineering" in the turbolift and its always takes you to the right room to find Scotty.
     
  17. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    That or all directives are put through to old Montgomery no matter which area he's in?
    JB
     
  18. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Fantastic! What about That Which Survives, where we are supposedly near the reactor? Aren't there two or three episodes where it is not present, including those from Season One?

    You know, after being resistant to this mirrored engine room idea, what I really like about this idea, is that there would be two pipe structures, one facing fore and one facing aft, connecting the equipment in Engineering with both the nacelles and the defector.

    I took a look at the "Making of Star Trek" ship scale image again and noticed something interesting about the saucer, when compared to the model and to the FJSTM. The deck immediately below the saucer rim is thicker. Rather than being the start of the cone for the lower saucer decks, it is actually large enough in diameter to almost add another deck to the saucer rim!

    Once again, the model is concave here and the FJSTM does not have the extra diameter for this deck. Maybe this is how Engineering fits into the saucer: In Kirk's time the deck was expanded to allow for more crew/equipment compared to Pike, and then there is room for a two-level Engineering plus curved corridor, but maybe filming the model just does not reflect it because it would have required too much modification?
     
  19. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back on the Shelf
    Yes, no DTD seen in the episode, no nub to discuss. I assume the That Which Survives ER was in the secondary hull since the episode was all about antimatter bypass valves, etc. I struggled to final some discriminator in the Season One ER's (no DTD) such as number of bottom pipes visible, control consoles, wall partitions, billy clubs, transformers, etc., but I eventually concluded that it could be all the same room in the saucer (Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)).
     
  20. Henoch

    Henoch Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2018
    Location:
    Back on the Shelf
    I was thinking about The Conscience of the King, again, where Riley is sent down to a engineering control room while the Karidian Players were performing in the Theater and roaming around the near their quarters and dining rooms.
    KIRK: Lieutenant Kevin Riley in communications, I wish to have him transferred down to the engineering decks.​
    The Theater was as large and tall as the engine room and the gym (maybe the same room), which would put it either down into the central decks of the saucer (like Deck 6 or 7). The same argument can be made on the engine room in the saucer, itself. So, if both are on/near the same decks, sending Riley to the saucer engine room does not make sense, it only puts him closer to Karidian. Also, the passenger quarters are probably on Decks 5 or 6, so, sending him to Deck 7 for example, again doesn't put him far away. The Engine Control Room in TCOTK must be in the secondary hull to assure that Riley doesn't come in contact with Karidian.

    Unique features of that ER are no wall partition next to the control console at which he was sitting (as seen in The Naked Time), and three high set of pipes in the pipe cathedral versus two (as seen in The Enemy Within and The Naked Time). Also note that the ER in The Naked Time was one of the two episodes (Court Martial was the other episode) where a long curved corridor in front of the entrance was shown, which I assume puts these ER's in the Saucer (I can argue this point either way, but I'm taking the KISS principle for the moment). My new conclusion: two engine rooms in Season One, one in the primary hull (as seen in TNT) and one in the secondary hull (as seen in TCOTK). Both rooms must have been overhauled for Seasons 2/3.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
    Mres_was_framed! likes this.