endgame, the best trek finale?

[DanCPA]

What I'm saying is that she still had some more to do before she would be ready.

Given her emotional growth with Janeway, the doctor, and the borg kiddies... I don't think she was emotionally unprepared for an emotional/romantic relationship.
And we have seen that she wants to do that...

At what age would you have wanted her to develop these relationships? By physical age, 7of9 was likely already in her 30s...

 

[kimc]

I'm just seeing her as she was presented on the show.

The thing is she was presented as someone with an emotional fail-safe device. How on earth can anyone grow emotionally when they can't experience their emotions fully?

I know kids with more life experience in some areas than I have.

Some of which I wouldn't care to have myself.

 

[teya]

By physical age, 7of9 was likely already in her 30s...

By the birthdate given in "The Gift," Seven was 6 months shy of her 30th birthday at the time of "Endgame."

 

[kimc]

At what age would you have wanted her to develop these relationships? By physical age, 7of9 was likely already in her 30s...

Physically sure. However, thanks to the borg assimilation and fail-safe device she was an emotional adolescent which is still pretty remarkable imo considering what she had been through.

 

[DanCPA]

However, thanks to the borg assimilation and fail-safe device she was an emotional adolescent which is still pretty remarkable imo considering what she had been through.

It's who and what she is... I think you don't give her credit for all the growth that she had in UZ, and the real character and personal growth she had in her first 3 years on Voyager.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Uhura was mindwiped in the Changeling. Federation technology from the 23rd century was able to build a functioning personality for her after the fact so seamlessly that it was never mentioned again that she'd lost 20 something years of emotional maturity and experience.

Between the Borg making Seven an emissary and the Doctor making sure that she didn't kill everyone...
The holes which should have been in her personality had been sealed with psychometric putty.

 

[kimc]

However, thanks to the borg assimilation and fail-safe device she was an emotional adolescent which is still pretty remarkable imo considering what she had been through.

It's who and what she is... I think you don't give her credit for all the growth that she had in UZ, and the real character and personal growth she had in her first 3 years on Voyager.

I've already stated I give her credit for her growth on Voyager. However, I also agree with AuntKate:

I really don't think Seven remembers the six years with Axum--and she doesn't say that she does. She says what she felt with him was real. IMHO, what she remembers is the "reconnection" she's made with Axum, which may or may not be as strong as it was while she was still a drone. What's real is that kiss and grope she had while UZ was falling apart around her. Even if she does remember those six years, what they had was hardly a "real" relationship, as we know it, since they only saw each other now and then and in an artificial environment. It included none of the compromise and struggle that living together in real life would demand and so would be of very little value in preparing her for a long-term bond.

 

[kimc]

However, thanks to the borg assimilation and fail-safe device she was an emotional adolescent which is still pretty remarkable imo considering what she had been through.

It's who and what she is... I think you don't give her credit for all the growth that she had in UZ, and the real character and personal growth she had in her first 3 years on Voyager.

I've already stated I give her credit for her growth on Voyager. However, I also agree with AuntKate:

I really don't think Seven remembers the six years with Axum--and she doesn't say that she does. She says what she felt with him was real. IMHO, what she remembers is the "reconnection" she's made with Axum, which may or may not be as strong as it was while she was still a drone. What's real is that kiss and grope she had while UZ was falling apart around her. Even if she does remember those six years, what they had was hardly a "real" relationship, as we know it, since they only saw each other now and then and in an artificial environment. It included none of the compromise and struggle that living together in real life would demand and so would be of very little value in preparing her for a long-term bond.

Aside from that she still had her emotional failsafe - even while regenerating.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Aside from that she still had her emotional failsafe - even while regenerating.

I never understood the point of that. A drone that discovers emotion is malfunctioning. Wouldn't they just be destroyed because that would be an indication that they were not fully part of the collective? Kind of a 'if they right hand offend thee' sort of thing?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'd guess that it was primarily regulating each Drones contribution to the collective as much as it was about pruning the defectives... The emotional inhibitor did start a termination process which is why Seven was in so much trouble when she tried to think outside the box and the box fought back.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

this is an iffy subject, but i think that endgame was the best finale in trek. i have heard the criticisms like people saying it was lazy, and featured the borg......again! i think however it was not lazy but genius, and its how a trek series should end, with all the bells and whistles going off

I loved it. It showed loyalty and friendship, key components of any great Trek.

I never saw the filae of DS9 or Enterprise, but this was better than TNG and TOS. TOS is still my favorite Trek by far, but Janice Lester? Cmon!

All Good Things was good in spots, but it had that antiseptic TNG feel to it.

Endgame was a great ep.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The last "story" for Deep Space Nine was 10 episodes long. A heavily plotted continuous epic adventure trying to complete everything they had been working towards since day one and every other journey they started after that tying off relationships and wars. It might have fell apart at the last moment, but it was one hell of an effort.

Enterprise had one episode in their final story and half of it was about how much we miss TNG, while ironically pulling the teeth out of one of TNG's more entertaining tales.

Voyager's last story was a very Voyager story for people that like Voyager, which is not altogether a bad thing and no less than any one should have expected if they had been paying attention. honestly, was there any other story which could have been told at the end than what was?

 

[Tactical Drone]

I've grown to appreciate it. I tend to let my opinions be too influenced by internet forum users and "hated" it for a long time because if that. When I opened my mind and actually watched it for real, it wasn't too bad. Only real thing I still dislike is the thrown together Seven/Chuckles relationship. I don't think it's the best finale though. "All Good Things..." still holds that spot in my humble opinion.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Was the TAS finale anything special?

 

[Unicron]

I like the chance to see the crew after they have returned home. I hated that what we saw in that never happened.

I'd have liked to see a bit more of it myself, but I don't feel it was a huge necessity. I agree that the premise is more about the journey.

In addition, Janeway's motivation didn't make much sense. You're going to follow the Admiral's demands because Chakotay dies after he marries Seven and SHE kicks it? Wait... after all the other crew members you no doubt lost, this is the one?

It wasn't merely Seven's death, it was her plus all of the others who died in Admiral Janeway's timeline. What was it, 25 or 30 crewmembers or something over the remaining years?

Besides all that, if you were coming back to save the lives of your crew, why not go back to the very start with a way to get them home and destroy the array? That way none of it every happened? I mean, where's the line?

Reset button. Besides, a similar idea had already been done in "Relativity," with the evil Braxton attempting to destroy Voyager before it left Earth.

Where are the temporal time cops to keep you from fudging up the timeline? They've been there at least twice before to keep you from doing that.

Meh. The whole "temporal prime directive" thing is one of the silliest inventions, and even worse than how the normal PD has been abused by the writers. Frankly, I don't trust the good guys to be completely responsible when it comes to this form of power. "Relativity" is a good example of this - when the saboteur is revealed to be the evil, future version of Braxton, his counterpart (whose still sane and reasonable) is relieved of command by his first officer. His lame reasoning is crimes Braxton was "going to commit," as if it's completely impossible to prevent him from becoming his evil future self.

Endgame is an average finale at best. It's not nearly on the same level as AGT or WYLB, in my opinion.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

Are you out of your MIND? Endgame was a travesty against television. A crime against good taste. A boring stupid rehash of rehashiness and an insult to everyone who watch that series waiting for the moment when they reached earth.

ENT's finale was probably a little worse, but thats not saying much.

TOS didnt have one.

DS9's was very good.

TNG's finale was an utter masterpiece - there is no comparison. In fact I would rank All Good Things... in my top 5 Trek episodes of all time, of any series.

 

[Guy Gardener]

"Relativity" is a good example of this - when the saboteur is revealed to be the evil, future version of Braxton, his counterpart (whose still sane and reasonable) is relieved of command by his first officer. His lame reasoning is crimes Braxton was "going to commit," as if it's completely impossible to prevent him from becoming his evil future self.
.

Considering they're going to integrate the two Braxtons from relativity, it's impossible for the present Braxton to commit those crimes even though he's about to be come a gestalt being who already has... And the Braxtons never would have gone insane if the healthy one from the end of Future's End hadn't been integrated with the grandpa who'd spent 20 something years in a 20th century psyche ward.

 

[kipron]

It was...alright.

 

[KayArr]

Ranking the finales:

Terra Prime is #1 (it IS the finale, ya' know)

Endgame is #2--I can actually see WeAreTheBorg's criticism as a valid one now that I've seen them all on dvd, but I watched it when it aired without seeing more than one out of 10 episodes of seasons 2-7, so I found it exciting. I'd still put it above the TNG and DS9 finales to this day.

All Good Things and What You Leave Behind are much of a muchness, both shows had run out of gas.

Turnabout Intruder is awful.

TATV is worse.

 

[Natural]

My initial reaction to Endgame was, "wow, this is ridiculous and terrible." But after a few years, my reaction when I watch it now is, "wow, this is ridiculous and terrible."