Didn't he tell the EMH2 that he had made certain "modifications" to the program!And, hey, I'd think the EMH could come up with the wherewhithal for a proper boinking without becoming human! Isn't that what holodeck sex is all about?
endgame, the best trek finale?
- Thread starter TheDoctor
- Start date
Are you kidding me? I'm supposed to accept that DS9 and Enterprise's finales were better than Voyager's? Or Next Generation's, which was nothing more than a character study?
Screw that! I'll stick with Voyager having the best finale.
"What You Leave Behind" - at least Part 2 - was a piece of crap. A piece of boring crap. At least to me. Between that asnine showdown between Sisko and Dukat and the ridiculously long departure sequences for some of the characters, I had to struggle just to stay awake.
With twins? Dear God...
If that isn't one of the worst cliches used in bad Voyager fanfiction... It's right up there along with drunken proclamations of love in the mess hall, Janeway and Chakotay singing their enduring love for each other in a talent show, the Doctor miraculously becoming human so that he can boink Seven properly, and--my absolute favorite--Janeway and Chakotay riding off on horseback into the sunset together.
You left out my favorite--where Seven becomes a shy, naive ingenue who is overwhelmed by the complexity of this brave new world and seeks refuge in the arms of a wise, almost paternal Chakotay who patiently teaches her how to cross streets with the lights and tie her shoes all by herself.
Wow! You finally posted your review of my fanfic on a public board!
But come on... You know there's been no shoe-tying or crossing streets with the lights.
And, hey, I'd think the EMH could come up with the wherewhithal for a proper boinking without becoming human! Isn't that what holodeck sex is all about?
One would think...
TheLonelySquire
Vice Admiral
Is HE out of his mind? You're the one who has the Borg Queen wearing the sombrero! Just kidding. TNG's finale was very good. I don't think it was top 5 all time, but certainly top 5 TNG. I'd put Family and Inner Light above it easily.
That's just it, part II is only part of the finale. You need to watch the entire episode. It goes back to the pilot with the introduction of the prophets, the bajoran religion. It continues by resolving the story part, the dominion war, and then the character part, they all move on.
Simply the best finale.
Voyager's last stand was an attempt to complete the mission, bring the crew home, but it lacked in the character portion.
No part two was crap.
There'd been a massive story. Every thing conducted like Italian traffic. Complicated and beautiful.
Then with ten minutes left Sisko says "Oh! I forgot something." and beams down to the fire caves with a single phaser rifle to fight a god. It's like finding that penis of Natalie Portmans that everyone is talking about. Just this furloughed appendage sprouting out of somewhere it has no business to sprout from, as if the writers themselves had said "Oh! I forgot something."
There'd been a massive story. Every thing conducted like Italian traffic. Complicated and beautiful.
Then with ten minutes left Sisko says "Oh! I forgot something." and beams down to the fire caves with a single phaser rifle to fight a god. It's like finding that penis of Natalie Portmans that everyone is talking about. Just this furloughed appendage sprouting out of somewhere it has no business to sprout from, as if the writers themselves had said "Oh! I forgot something."
Ask and ye shall receive...Yeah! What's the link?Could you post or pm a link to the fanfic? Thanks.I've been reading a really loooong fanfic that re-imagines the final season. In that one, Chakotay and Janeway realize they love each other and can make a relationship work. They get married, Janeway gets pregnant (with twins!), and when they come across the Borg hub, they run in the opposite direction. The Chakotay/Seven relationship never happens, as Seven starts dating Ayala(?). As for them getting back to the Alpha Quadrant, they do manage that... by dashing through a wormhole while trying to escape a completely different species that wants to kill them. They don't even know where the wormhole leads, but they're willing to risk it because if they don't, they definitely will end up dead. So they end up in the Alpha Quadrant, but not on Earth's doorstep. They're still 15,000-20,000 lightyears from Earth, and they didn't come out in friendly territory. I'm not quite halfway through the story, so I don't know what will happen next, but I'm sure it will involve somebody coming along and accusing them of trespassing or whatever...
Beyond the Stars
But be forewarned: It's 42 chapters long!
It's the second worst. No maybe third. TATV was a mind-boggling travesty/final slap in the face courtesy of B&B, and if anyone can make an episode worse than that, my TV would probably go into meltdown. While "Turnabout Intruder" has camp value, everyone has to admit it's troglyditic and repulsive.
TNG's finale was okay. I certainly don't recall it pissing me off like VOY's and ENT's did.
DS9's has its flaws - the A story (Dukat vs Sisko) should have been dominant, which means the B story (the Dominion War) should have been dependent on the resolution of the A story - that would have avoided the "oops I forgot something" aspect of having the two stories essentially unconnected.
Also, if Sisko's religious journey had been more about his inner faith and less about running around and doing this or that to fulfill prophecy - and if Dukat hadn't been a stupid red-eyed pawn but his old self, always scheming to get back into power and stupidly thinking he could manipulate the paghwraiths the way he attempted to control and manipulate allies in the past (and couldn't even succeed with the Dominion, never mind beings that have the quality of actual dieties) - then the dumb video-game style final confrontation at the Fire Caves might have seemed more profound and worthy of a finale.
Also, the logic of why the Founder surrendered rather than ordering the Jems to fight to the end really needed to be looked at harder. The way it played out, either she surrendered because she was weakened by the virus (validating genocide as a military strategy - oops, not very Trek of them) or because she underwent an inexplicable personality change at the last minute (mercy having never been part of her makeup before - why not simply order the Jems to fight to the last man and wreak as much havoc as possible). One thing that did not happen is that Odo gave her the cure in exchange for her surrendering (which would put us right back in the "not very Trek of them" dilemma - even BSG doesn't validate genocide as a strategy, and that show is much darker than Trek should ever be.)
But DS9's flaws are the flaws of complex and ambitious storytelling. None of the other series even attempted that degree of difficulty, which is what makes it the best Trek series finale so far.
TNG's finale was okay. I certainly don't recall it pissing me off like VOY's and ENT's did.
DS9's has its flaws - the A story (Dukat vs Sisko) should have been dominant, which means the B story (the Dominion War) should have been dependent on the resolution of the A story - that would have avoided the "oops I forgot something" aspect of having the two stories essentially unconnected.
Also, if Sisko's religious journey had been more about his inner faith and less about running around and doing this or that to fulfill prophecy - and if Dukat hadn't been a stupid red-eyed pawn but his old self, always scheming to get back into power and stupidly thinking he could manipulate the paghwraiths the way he attempted to control and manipulate allies in the past (and couldn't even succeed with the Dominion, never mind beings that have the quality of actual dieties) - then the dumb video-game style final confrontation at the Fire Caves might have seemed more profound and worthy of a finale.
Also, the logic of why the Founder surrendered rather than ordering the Jems to fight to the end really needed to be looked at harder. The way it played out, either she surrendered because she was weakened by the virus (validating genocide as a military strategy - oops, not very Trek of them) or because she underwent an inexplicable personality change at the last minute (mercy having never been part of her makeup before - why not simply order the Jems to fight to the last man and wreak as much havoc as possible). One thing that did not happen is that Odo gave her the cure in exchange for her surrendering (which would put us right back in the "not very Trek of them" dilemma - even BSG doesn't validate genocide as a strategy, and that show is much darker than Trek should ever be.)
But DS9's flaws are the flaws of complex and ambitious storytelling. None of the other series even attempted that degree of difficulty, which is what makes it the best Trek series finale so far.
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These two posts summarize why I really dislike Endgame. Although I am with Adm_Hawthorne about wishing we'd seen more about what happened after they got home. I'd have liked to have seen more, for example, about what happens with Tom, B'Elanna, and Admiral Paris.
Because of the above points, while VOY, along with TOS, is kinda tied as my second favorite Trek show, Endgame is my second to LEAST favorite series finale. The only series finale I like less is the ENT finale.
1I just watched Endgame for the second time tonight and I do really like it.
Admiral Janeway is fantastic, I love the J/J scenes, and Admiral Janeway's reaction when she first sees Seven and the catch in her voice when she tries to convince Seven of her plan to get them back to the Alpha Quadrant ...beautiful.
I understand why Janeway came back, it was for Seven. She loved Seven ( like a mother loves her daughter imo, but feel free to interpret that bond how you wish).
While I would have liked to have seen the crew's fates worked out, there's only so much you can do in two hours. The fault there lies not with the finale but that the rest of the season didn't work these things out. Once they were in regular contact with Starfleet and the Alpha Quadrant the Marquis's status could have been resolved, family relationships could have been worked out ( what was the problem between Tom and his dad anyways, there does seem to be a story there) , etc.
Voyager did get a celebration with fireworks in the alternate future, I think that was supposed to satisfy our urge to see them home. I wish they'd had a battle damged Voyager crash into the San Franscico bay, that would have made a nice contrast to the idealistic celebratory arrival of the alternate future.
Why didn't the temporal division stop Admiral Janeway? I just pretend they tried to stop her repeatedly but she kept outwiting them and they just gave up and surrendered their timeline to her, it all just happens off screnn lol.
Alice Krige as the Borg Queen was great, and Admiral Janeway sacrificing herself as a Trojan horse to get the crew home made a great ending.
I do love the idea I read above somewhere of the Caretaker's mate returning. I would have loved that, she was a great villain who has so much potential, that character and stroyline would also have made a great finale, but could also have worked as another episode or even better a two parter, preferably bringing back Kes restored to her true self and returned to her rightful place with Voyager. I hated what they did with her in the Fury, even returning her to Ocampa made no sense, Kes wanted to explore, she would never have been happy on sheltered backwards Ocampa.
Chakotay and Seven was a real blight to the episode. After years of J/C and 7/DR build up, the odd pairing of Seven and Chakotay made no sense, tehy had zero chemistry togather despite having great chemistry with others. I can only assume they wanted their "babe" to hook up and paired her off with the hottest available guy with no regard to chemistry, history or personality and just expected their hottness to carry it off. Big mistake, but I take comfort in the fact that the story of Voyager and her crew continue in the novels.
Looking forward to the upcoming Voyager re-relaunch novels!
Admiral Janeway is fantastic, I love the J/J scenes, and Admiral Janeway's reaction when she first sees Seven and the catch in her voice when she tries to convince Seven of her plan to get them back to the Alpha Quadrant ...beautiful.
I understand why Janeway came back, it was for Seven. She loved Seven ( like a mother loves her daughter imo, but feel free to interpret that bond how you wish).
While I would have liked to have seen the crew's fates worked out, there's only so much you can do in two hours. The fault there lies not with the finale but that the rest of the season didn't work these things out. Once they were in regular contact with Starfleet and the Alpha Quadrant the Marquis's status could have been resolved, family relationships could have been worked out ( what was the problem between Tom and his dad anyways, there does seem to be a story there) , etc.
Voyager did get a celebration with fireworks in the alternate future, I think that was supposed to satisfy our urge to see them home. I wish they'd had a battle damged Voyager crash into the San Franscico bay, that would have made a nice contrast to the idealistic celebratory arrival of the alternate future.
Why didn't the temporal division stop Admiral Janeway? I just pretend they tried to stop her repeatedly but she kept outwiting them and they just gave up and surrendered their timeline to her, it all just happens off screnn lol.
Alice Krige as the Borg Queen was great, and Admiral Janeway sacrificing herself as a Trojan horse to get the crew home made a great ending.
I do love the idea I read above somewhere of the Caretaker's mate returning. I would have loved that, she was a great villain who has so much potential, that character and stroyline would also have made a great finale, but could also have worked as another episode or even better a two parter, preferably bringing back Kes restored to her true self and returned to her rightful place with Voyager. I hated what they did with her in the Fury, even returning her to Ocampa made no sense, Kes wanted to explore, she would never have been happy on sheltered backwards Ocampa.
Chakotay and Seven was a real blight to the episode. After years of J/C and 7/DR build up, the odd pairing of Seven and Chakotay made no sense, tehy had zero chemistry togather despite having great chemistry with others. I can only assume they wanted their "babe" to hook up and paired her off with the hottest available guy with no regard to chemistry, history or personality and just expected their hottness to carry it off. Big mistake, but I take comfort in the fact that the story of Voyager and her crew continue in the novels.
Looking forward to the upcoming Voyager re-relaunch novels!
"All Good Things" was by far the best series finale.
I enjoyed "Endgame," but disliked the painful to watch 7/C scenes. I also wish we had seen more of the homecoming.
Although I liked Endgame, I wish the producers had left the ship stranded. Perhaps I could naively then hope that we would have received a Voyager movie in which they made it home???
I enjoyed "Endgame," but disliked the painful to watch 7/C scenes. I also wish we had seen more of the homecoming.
Although I liked Endgame, I wish the producers had left the ship stranded. Perhaps I could naively then hope that we would have received a Voyager movie in which they made it home???
I am really glad Voyager made it home. A movie wasn't going happen unfortunately, and it would have been a big let down not to resolve the major story arc ( the journey home) of the series.
Getting Voyager home doesn't prevent a movie from being made however. I'd love to see , if not a big budget theater release, then a series of direct to dvd films the way Stargate is doing now.
Getting Voyager home doesn't prevent a movie from being made however. I'd love to see , if not a big budget theater release, then a series of direct to dvd films the way Stargate is doing now.
TCCI?
I haven't seen WYLB yet but it sounds like it centers too much on the reeeeaaaally boring Bajoran stuff. AGT was pretty boring and had a pointless plot. Endgame was the best finale when compared to this. Sure, it had it's problems, but what episode of anything doesn't? The 7/C thing was rather pointless, but it didn't spoil the episode much. I would have liked to see the crew being reunited with their family's and such with Janeway recording her final log as Captain before being promoted or court martialed.
OH! And her first job in the New Zealand penal colony from where she picked up Tom Paris is to help destroy the same building he was building in the pilot because it had shoddy foundations and became ramshackle well before it's intended due by date.
I wanted to see her get her dog back from Mark too, or an argument about who the dog really belonged to know since he had been in care of it for 7 years, or it died the day before she got home? ...Oh and I wanted to see mirals grandparents get it on.
I wanted to see her get her dog back from Mark too, or an argument about who the dog really belonged to know since he had been in care of it for 7 years, or it died the day before she got home? ...Oh and I wanted to see mirals grandparents get it on.
Since the only two of her grandparents we know for sure are alive, that should be interesting... John Torres and Admiral Paris!OH! And her first job in the New Zealand penal colony from where she picked up Tom Paris is to help destroy the same building he was building in the pilot because it had shoddy foundations and became ramshackle well before it's intended due by date.
I wanted to see her get her dog back from Mark too, or an argument about who the dog really belonged to know since he had been in care of it for 7 years, or it died the day before she got home? ...Oh and I wanted to see mirals grandparents get it on.
